Practice & ethics in rock climbing

I have climbed many years now but still struggle on a low level. However, the scorecard and hunt for points is a nice incentive to keep on and try to improve. The discussion about practice & ethics is most welcome. I would like to get some opions on the following. Many times its convenient to put a quickdraw in the anchor chain and then put the rope in the anchor carabiner while resting in the rope. In my opinion it would feel a little bit harsh not to be able to count an onsight because the anchor carabiner was stuck or if for some other reasons not possible to clip. On the other hand if the crux is at the anchor and the clip is simplified due to the extension of the anchor I believe that one is out on deep water. This issue is only related to onsight or flash of a route with an anchor carabiner and not knowing the condition of the anchor carabiner.

talking about ethics, in the case of D. Lama, he onsighted the first part of mortal kombat (7c+) on december, apparently he went back and send the whole route onsighting the second part, but he had already done the 1st part months before. Can be this really considered as a flash ascent??I don't think so.....It's a f**king good performance, and don't have any doubt this kid is so strong, but what about ethics.....

@pre-clipped carabiners: downclimbing may be ridiculous, but if one doesn't stress the rope during downclimbing it's still a free ascent/redpoint. Anyway, in practise downclimbing is not possible, due to safety reason, or because its simpely too hard and no fun. The second point I want to question: red card for 3 pre-clipped carabiners? What about the distance between those carabiners? For example: Someone pre-clips the first carabiner, that is at 6 meters . Then climbs back to the ground. Ok! Someone pre-clips the 3rd carabiner in 5 meters. Not Ok!? I think pre-clipping depands on how the route was climbed during the first ascent. If a route is usually climbed with pre-clipped carabiners than it seems ok to me.

Whether you could claim an onsight if you have climbed the start previously, i.e. one route with three alternative endings, is a matter of relative marginal increased difficulty. Let's say you repeat a 7a before you continue on an 8a variant. Clearly, this would be considered as an onsight. If it's a 7c+ repeat in combination with an 8b ending onsight, it's something in between. David did not receive a single point for this ascent and we think it was innovative, and good ethics, of him to register it as a flash and comment how the ascent was done. How many grades difference in between is needed to claim an onsight - 3, 4 or 5? Many of the hardest routes in the world are done with 3 - 10 pre-clipped carabiners, in order to make the ascent easier, by starting with a top-rope. Often one claim 3 - 10 pre-clipped, since the downclimbig has been done previously, or if you intend to do it afterwards. Any systematic downclimbing from the third or above is kind of ridiculous or where do you draw the line?

downclimbing has been part of trad climbing for years. I would have thought it is pretty obvious where you draw the line..... If you weight the rope, then you've stepped over it!

Seems a good article except for the bit about downclimbing. The essence of both RP and onsight is not to weight the rope. Seems like the idea about not downclimbing comes from competition climbing where the limitation of time makes this a sensible rule. However I've never heard of this being applied to climbing outdoors. The case of Chouca at Buoux is interesting. A lot of RP ascents were made with the first 3 bolts clipped. There were 4 possible variations of this: 1. The climber clipped the 3 bolts and downclimbed at the start of each day's climbing. 2. The climber clipped the bolts and downclimbed only once during the whole period of trying the route (Yellow card IMO) 3. The climber never clipped the bolts and down climbed (Red card IMO) 4. The climber clipped the bolts and downclimbed once AFTER redpointing the route (Red/Yellow?)

[quote]Whether you could claim an onsight if you have climbed the start previously, i.e. one route with three alternative endings, is a matter of relative marginal increased difficulty. Let's say you repeat a 7a before you continue on an 8a variant. Clearly, this would be considered as an onsight. If it's a 7c+ repeat in combination with an 8b ending onsight, it's something in between. David did not receive a single point for this ascent and we think it was innovative, and good ethics, of him to register it as a flash and comment how the ascent was done. How many grades difference in between is needed to claim an onsight - 3, 4 or 5?[/quote] there are some rules on climbing that can't be flexible, like the definition of flash, onsight and redpoint. it doesn't really matter the grade difference of the first or second part, it's very simple, it was a 2nd try and that's it. it was not a flash and neither onsight. he already climbed the first part of the route. and mortal kombat is part 1+2,not only part 2, so that means it was his second try, and an awsome performance by david lama.

hmmn. with trad routes being downclimbed... this makes a huge difference cause you place gear. having all the gear up to say halfway preplaced severly changes the difficulty of the route... where is this line drawn? so what if you didnt weight the rope, you fricken cheated!

Downclimbing to my mind is unacceptable. Apart from the obvious change in the difficulty of reclimbing the section of rock, what is more inportant is that you step off the route! If you step off onto the ground you are no longer climbing the cliff and have thus ended that attempt. The rope should be pulled and the climb started afresh. Think of bouldering if you step off the rock thats your attempt over!

This discussion is like many other stupid. Let people decide for themselves whice style they want to climb - why should this homepage make lists with what to do/not to do? Nerds.