Oliana/Margalef = Kalymnos grading

Caroline Ciavaldini did Mind Control on her fourth try, very nice but it should be obvious also for AO that it is not an 8c+? A Sharma route about getting down graded and I am sure there are more to come!

I just listen to climbers who do the routes, like Morini, Nina, Andrada, Juliá and whoever. Yes, you are all talking about the routes to downgrade and some of you say that Spanish grades are easy, even not climbed the routes or not even visited the crags. It makes think about the sort of climbers are around. On the other hand, none of you has the courage to talk about those routes who could not be climbed by these climbers, even though such routes have been attempted for weeks.  There is a sentence which comes to say “Give me a man who has tried it a thousand of times, than a man who has never tried it” this is a clear reference to the armchair climbers :-)

You are missing the point. These guys you mention have not confirmed the grade. They have just used the grade Sharma suggested. Actually, Moroni used the 8c+ grade but in his comment he said, everyone knows it is just 8c. Jens is trying to push personal grading but even Ondra did not use it when he onsighted Mind Control, "soft pretty wet, getting confused in the grades, who knows, but probably bit harder than Fish Eye" which most likely is 8b+.

I do not know if mind control is soft or not. But I know for sure that not all the routes in Spain are soft. Like any other country we have easy and hard graded routes and known places where the grades are softer than others.  Nowadays Spain is booming,  all the best climbers in the world spend their climbing season in Spain looking for projects etc.. the majority of them need numbers to show to their sponsors. it is easier to look for long endurance routes than old school technical and bouldery routes. And if any of them have a quick succes on one of this hard projects the others will follow and try the same route. You can see that kind of behavior every where. it is not about the place it is about nowadays society behavior: maximum gain minimum effort.  ask your self how many of these climber are trying the existing old school routes in spain? a part from Dani that did all of them? Climb more and try harder!

Patrick said, "A Sharma route about getting down graded and I am sure there are more to come!" Can you give us some examples of Sharma routes that are about to get downgraded?  I'm not saying you are wrong.  Looks like some of his high-end routes get climbed pretty fast.  Papichulo is one example.  Others have yet to be repeated, and maybe should get UPgraded.  3 degrees may fall in that category: Ondra suggests upgrade and Pringle suggests 9b.  You've brought this up several times recently, so I'd like to know more of your thinking, as opposed to simply repeating the statement. 

@ Alejandro Amilibia  ; Very well said man¡ I tried several times in this forum to say the same.

I also in general agree with Alejandor but when you, " it is easier to look for long endurance routes than old school technical and bouldery routes." If it is easier maybe the routes should also have easier grades? Further more, if you just need "minimum effort", it is also an indication that these routes are easier compared to the old school routes. 

No Jens, do not take the sentence out of the context. What "Maximum gain, minimum effort" it is quite different from your understanding. “Maximum gain” means repeating routes on top of the wave, fashionable routes, everyone knows the route, all media, and “Minimum effort” means; they get the beta from the climbers being around and attempting the route, also the quickdraws are always on the route because it is always somebody’s project. This does not happen with the old routes which are old fashion and just forgotten.

@Patrick: "A Sharma route about getting down graded and I am sure there are more to come!" You say this with a certain amount of glee, do you have something against him?  Or are you just trying to be antagonistic? I can't speak for Sharma, but from what I have followed over the years, I don't think he would care if an 8c+ of his changes to 8c. There was a number of years where he didn't put grades on anything, and I think that was because he didn't feel they were that important.  No one is infallible, and putting a grade on something after a first assent is always a guess.  As mentioned there are other routes put up by Sharma that most likely need to be upgraded. Styles change, grades get consolidated, so what? Another thought might be this:  When you climb a route a few levels below your max limit, it is not always easy to pinpoint the grade.  For example if your top level is 8b and you put up an easier line, and call it 7c or 7c+ you may not have a good objective idea of the exact difficulty.  It may take a few assents to really get a good feel for the grade.  This in my opinion takes nothing away from the first assentionist.  Mind control might be a good example of this, as it is quite a bit below Sharma's limit. From what I see about the routes in this area are that they are long, amazing looking, and inspiring to try. Mind control looks like a stunning line regardless of the grade.  I would choose to focus on that myself.