Flash?

If you touch the sequence holds before your attempt, so you should not called Flash, nor Onsight but First Go That is not fair for people who does Flash and Onsight ascents.

according to your definition, that's what I'm trying to make clear the last few posts. this back and forth is pointless, understand?

Obviously not everyone agrees with your definition of flash. Why don't you apply your rules to your game and let others decide for themselves? Also there is nothing unfair for people using different definitions. You know what you have climbed and in what style. How does my experience which might be different detract from your sense of accomplishment?

People can do whatever they want. But you cannot claim a red point if you hold the quickdraws, this is as true, as you cannot claim a Flash if you work out the moves.

But to some people working out the moves and touching holds from the ground is different but this has been said before.  You somehow seem to think that even though different people have different opinions  of what is and is not allowed in a flash you are the authority and can lay down the law on the people. We do not need to discuss what is or is not a valid flash because it is different to different people. Your example is extremely flawed as no-one will ever claim they did a red-point while using the draws. And then you continue to present your opinion that touching holds=working moves as fact. This is not a constructive discussion because you cannot distinguish your opinion from fact.

Yes please,   touch the holds as much as you need, find out whether the hold is slippery or has good friction, calculate the strength you should do on it, figure out how many fingers you may fit in the hold, find out if your fingers suit the pocket or not, if you should stick two or three fingers in it, figure out by holding two holds in which direction you should pull, figure out how if you should grip or use an open hand, find out if you should stretch much from one hold to other, if there is a long way to reach or not, if you are not sure, you can still touching the holds and chalking them up until the friction match your taste, get your own experience being on the boulder or traverse, no matter what you do as long as you have either the left or right foot on the ground. Having done such process, do not forget to claim your Onsight/Flash ascent as to top climbers do. Afterwards, no wonder if someone calls you cheater.

A0 As stated before: There is a huge difference between touching a hold (and ticking it if you want)  and putting load on it. If you work the move , you will try the bodyposition etc. etc.  In bouldering it it common to first chalk up the holds, then brush them clean again even before trying to climb it. This is why onsight of a boulder is rare. It is still a valid flash. Flash definition is: Climb a route/boulder with prior knowledge on your first try. If you work one move one time, you blow your flash. ' There is little difference if my friend explain the moves and holds in detail, and tick them for me, or if I touch the holds myself and look at a video. (I still suck at flashing and onsighting)..  

Are there really people who work out moves with one foot on the ground and claim a flash ascent? When I opened the discussion, I meant with "touching" the holds just feel the the shape of them, never putting weight on it. If i put weight on holds or work moves in some way, i blew the flash and just have first go left... I mean the salient point is, what a ascent on the first go with "beta" is. What is "beta"? Is there a big difference if i watch three climbers before me and see how the take a hold and describe me very precise how the hold is to take/looks like or I feel the hold myself? But still my ethic looks like this, that I would just touch the holds from the starting position and not climb on an easier route to feel the holds etc... Just my two cents

This is very interesting matter, thanks for raising the subject. @A0  You are perfectly right. And the sad thing is that you are bound to loose. Probably you know it :) Just like old-fashioned people fighting against OS deterioration. When I started bouldering I was amazed that for almost all people "flashing" means touching everything. For me it was completely illogical, as the grey area of what you can do next is vast. Fortunately there is still common sense around and I haven't seen anyone rehearsing the moves before flash attempt. As you said what would be laughed at 10 years ago, is normal now. Funny thing is that I'm sure we'll soon start seeing people trying moves on one leg and having flashes on their ticklists:) I've already seen things like that in comps. You know: "everyone can have his own rules" ;) @Jens You often say that proclimbers do so&so. Why don't you give examples? Just like in OS tricks discussion. Can you tell which pro climbers do routes with many quickdraws preplaced? Do you know: how are some great boulder flashes done? Are they touching starting holds? all holds? maybe touching all than building a replica in the gym, then coming back in 2 years and flashing? As you give news about those ascents, it should be up to you to check what is the real style. Do you know how are the flashes you report done?

I think it is significant that rules in a "Flash" format competition are more in line with what A0 says. I think the standard has slid only because it is easy and convenient to touch holds on a boulder problem, but it is interesting that the stronger ethic is the rule in competitions. Watching world-cup climbers previewing problems is a good example, the amount of information they gain from touching the start holds is much different than what they gain on other "untouchable" holds. Hmmm, I think I might have to review my own tick list to see which problems I sent "first go" as opposed to "flash"!   :)

@ thebon: very good point! I can agree if you use the comp as a reference point (ie, a situation where clearly defined rules are in place), but outside the picture is less clear. when a standing start is defined but no specific starting holds (as is often the case in fontainebleau), what stops me from feeling ALL the holds when standing in front of the problem?

@ Grubber, If there are no specific starting holds and it is a standing start I would think this is a non-issue and I would then assume all holds you can reach are in bounds as they are potentially start holds. Unfortunately for me I haven't climbed in Font, (it is on my list though!)  but the bouldering guidebooks I have seen usually have very specific start holds listed. I think that as the sport evolves, the flash definition may change,  it seems most people taking part in the survey think it is ok to touch all the holds.  I'm not sure how easy it would be to bring the popular definition of flash back to the standard of only touching the starting holds.  I personally am of a mindset that this is a more "pure" definition of flash.  Suffice it to say that it is harder to flash something at your limit when you haven't felt the holds beforehand, and is a more significant accomplishment.

I understand why people claim that "before" or "back in the old days" the definition of flash was stricter. But is that really true? Were the standards stricter yesterday? have the watered? it is tempting to think they have and that yesterday was better, I don't think they have watered. I think that these discussions are of all times. and until we as a community come up with one shared and properly worded definition (which will be never) we will have these discussions. In reality it is only important to the climber to climb something in a good style. Let him be the judge of the style himself. The only time it becomes interesting to know the exact style in which something is climbed is when we need to compare climbers against each other. I say: let's save that for the competitions -with it's exact rules. and try and keep that out of outdoor climbing. Therefore i encourage people to use 8a as a way of keeping track of the routes climb but don't join the ranking (game).

@ Herman: I do not think this questions relates to the 8a ranking game. Most of claimed flashes are done outside the game and in this case it would be nice if we more or less used the same definition whenever we said to a friend or in a blog, "I flashed that boulder".

@herman, you are probably correct that in bouldering the definition of "flash" is not as clearly defined as in roped climbing. From my perspective I do think the standard has slipped, I remember watching Jacky Godoffe and Fred Nicole on their first trip to Hueco in the early 90's.  They were very careful to not touch anything before going for a flash. I do agree that we will most likely never come up with one definition, but I think it is something to work towards.  This is not just so you can compare to others.  Here is an example, if you  watched a new climber work a route then send  on his second go.  He gets down to the ground and claims "I just flashed that route".  You might take him aside and explain the meaning of "flash" as he is obviously not clear on what it means.  The same might be said if he watched his buddy on the problem and then flashed it with streaming beta, and got down claiming an onsight, you may explain the difference between the two terms.  In each case his style is fine but he may not have a clear understanding of the correct term for his assent.  I don't think anyone would fault you for explaining this.  The problem comes if there is no clear definition of the term.  By what you are saying we don't even need the terms when we go outdoors, if we "climb something in good style" we don't need to claim anything else? Like "free love and anarchy for all, no rules ;)" From a personal perspective I do gauge my progress to a certain extent on the grades that I flash, redpoint and onsite, and I don't in any way feel bad about it. I even sometimes have friendly competition with others I'm climbing with, and I like this aspect too.  It offers me motivation and fun in our experience, so long as we don't take it too seriously.

I think it's very nice to see that we can have a very interesting discussion about a topic that apparently has enough to debate about. as far as I'm concerned, we won't walk out with a shiny single definition on flash, but as long we are open and honest about what we personally treat as flash, then that is enough for me. in addition, I will tell you guys that I don't touch the holds on traverses, I was playing devil's advocate on that one :P only starting holds for defined holds, and all you can reach from the starting position for problems without defined starting holds it is for me!

@Jens Why you are ignoring questions from 8a community?? Can you tell which pro climbers do routes with many quickdraws preplaced? Do you know how are the flashes reported as major news done?

I just thought I'd throw my two cents in. So I've been climbing for about 18 years, I'm sure that's not the longest out of anybody who is reading this, but it's a pretty long time in terms of being in the game.  I've also climbed all over the world and with many of the top climbers at the time and here's what I can tell you from my experience. You CAN NOT touch holds other than the start holds if you want to flash.  Doesn't matter if you are "touching" them or "weighting" them, that argument is a bunch of crap, it's the same thing, you gain the exact same information regardless of how much "pressure" you put on a hold, and besides, who defines how hard "weighting" a hold is. From the time I started climbing the definition of Flash has always been first try with verbal or visual information about the route/boulder, the rules were that touching the start holds were fine but nothing else was to be touched until your attempt has started!  This is the problem with the community today, there was a very clear definition from a long time ago but people want to change it based on "what the community feels is right."  Again, this is BS.  You can't just change a definition because a bunch of whiners want to make flashing easier. All of the pros that I know, which is a lot of them, and in fact every person that I climb with, from V0-V14 climbers, will tell you that you can only touch the start holds to flash.  Doesn't matter if it's inside or outside, that is the STANDARD. If you want to touch all of the holds on the boulder and call it a flash I guess it's your choice but you're lying to yourself and to everybody around you.  You may as well start rappelling down routes and feeling all the holds before you "flash" your routes too.

okay, too bad you get your panties in a bunch, but I've got a few points for you: are you allowed to brush holds on a flash? because that also gives you extra info. and if starting holds are not defined, then what?

It is clear enought. Anythink else is an attempt to bend the rules.