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Forum: SWE / News / Janja superior on too hard boulders Login in to contribute
Janja superior on too hard boulders
OffLine 8a.nu
  2018-09-11 00:00:00    
The female boulder qualification got a good start with Janja Garnbret topping out all five boulders in good style. The problem in her group was that #4 ranked did only manage one top. As the competition progressed with less experienced female it was only the last boulder that was doable. In the end, when the sun sun hitting the walls, we saw only zones on two boulders out of one placed sticking the first move.

In the second group it was a bit better with Akiyo Noguchi on top with four boulders. However, also here it was good enough to make it to the semi by just doing one boulder. Austria did get four girls trough to the semi and had seven Top-23.

Overall, only 37 % out of all the girls did get at least three zones. Alejandra Contreras was #41, out of 112, by doing two zones in four tries. A total of 15 girls did not get one zone. Complete results (c) Udo Nemann
Click to Enlarge Picture
OffLine rai
  2018-09-11 17:31:12    
Hi Jens, where is the problem...? Janja has done all the boulders, the rest of the field is apparently a bit behind, so be it. Why do you want to have multiple 5 times tops...? Let's just hope that the semis will be as hard as the qualifications in order to avoid the curious scenarios of lead with 4 tops, where the best were not separated accordingly, and then had to run after the clock...
OffLine Tomi Lindroos
  2018-09-11 18:02:20    
Agree with rai. For first time for a year or two the routes were not too easy. Keep them like this or we see again 4 tops from 3 climbers in the final.
OnLine Arnoud Prinz
  2018-09-11 18:05:41    
@ Rai. The "problem" is not the top of the feeld, but the lower end. The cap between the strong and the weak is big in this field. The question is do you want 15 participants with out any zone. But for the semis this is a good result. IMO too hard for the qually's. It is fine to have 4 athelets flash all the boulders. In the qualies you only need the 20 best. And a nice ranking for the rest.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2018-09-11 18:48:02    
I guess that possibly ten of the female were pleased throughout the competitions. Both they and the crowd want to see tops. In the end, it was not so much about getting the zone but just to move from the starting position.

There is no tie problems in Bouldering as it is very unlikely we will see several climbers flashing all problems in both semi and the final. The easiest way to make a good setting in the qually is to have some easier boulders.

On the other hand, in the long run, IFSC should only allow boulderes that have been let us say Top-30 in a previous World Cup if you want to send more than two per country.
OffLine Thomas Salakenos
  2018-09-11 18:50:24    
Wathever happens in those events, you (Jens) will always find something to say.. and this is getting sooo boring. From my point of view, your website looks like a facebook profile, where a full time unhappy guy that you are expose his point of views whithout a very good knowledge and comprehension of climbing.
You are a reporter and your lack of subjectivity is appalling.
It is a word championship and that is the way it is. Not being contemptuous, it's not a bouldering open where there is something to climb for everybody. The strongest girl was Janja and the gap between her and the others shows a reality
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2018-09-11 19:03:13    
Most of the time I am very happy with the competitions. After the first day I reported, "excellent start" of the world champion. After the second day I said that the difficulty was almost spot on.

In this case, I know by fact that many coaches where unhappy with the setting. I guess it would be boring to visit 8a if every time, we reported of a great show, perfect setting and that everyone was pleased.
OffLine Bojan
  2018-09-11 20:22:41    
I think the difficulty of boulders was OK. All the girls with 2 to 5 tops advanced to the semis, plus those with 1 top and enough zones. No ties for the qualified and only few missed the semis on no. of attempts for the top (and one for the zone).
Besides, I want harder boulders also in qualies as it's interesting to watch 10 or 20 best boulderers fighting and falling and not flashing everything. So the first hour or so was worth watching.

With current format you could not expect good separation on lower places (most will score 0 tops and maybe one zone), but as the name implies qualifications are meant mostly for those 20 best to advance to the semis. Funny think about lower ranks is that some girls with 0T0z in one group (e.g. Natalia Kalucka on place #92) are ranked *higher* then those with 0T*1*z in the other group (Aleksandra Kalucka on place #108)...

@rai: note the countback to semis is (contrary to lead) very rarely needed to break the ties in bouldering. One case I'm aware of was Moscow WC this year, where Janja and Miho had identical result in the finals and Janja won on countback with 4 tops in the semis against Miho with 2 tops.
OnLine Arnoud Prinz
  2018-09-11 21:03:48    
@ Bojan "I want harder boulders also in qualies as it's interesting to watch 10 or 20 best boulderers fighting and falling and not flashing everything. So the first hour or so was worth watching."
Why not invite the best 20 atheletes and skip the qualies? You dont want to see them.
OffLine Bojan
  2018-09-11 21:28:17    
If they want to compete, let them compete!
And if you like to watch 5 or 6 hours for all 112 of them, feel free to do so. And please allow me to watch only 10 or 20 :P
OffLine Jérôme De Boeck
  2018-09-11 21:57:09    
About the always having something to say, I have to back-up Jens for once ;-) There are often mentions of competitions going very well with excellent setting and results reported... Unless all posts are not read.

I do agree that the reports are often black or white, and when they are black, setting is sometimes seen as something more or less ok to balance which is not the case and the setters are sometimes pointed harshly as if this fucked up and could have easily avoided to fuck up, this is pretty simplistic (or maybe I'm getting the posts wrong). But this seem to be a tradition to point out setters, as it is the same in many countries on national competitions :-) Setting is hard. Pleasing the crowd, the climbers and the result list at the same time is the goal of course but is impossible to guarantee prior the competition (setter who say it is are probably just lucky).

People judging route setters, keep in mind that for route setting, the setters can still do the moves of the routes to calibrate them. In bouldering, if you set a 5 move boulder for top level climber, it's a bit more complicated to calibrate the difficulty without risk. And setters have to play on risky moves.
OffLine Jérôme De Boeck
  2018-09-11 22:06:31    
A real issue I think in route setting is that there are very few women setting on international competition (actually even on all national competitions I worked on). And unpleasant results are often in the women's category. IFSC can have an influence on this.
OffLine Nikolina Marinova
  2018-09-11 22:17:17    
@ Bojan I can understand your point. But you are "pro" or at least very much into the sport climbing. We have to admit that a sport with such big contrasts within the WCH doesn't seem good to the audience but also to the professionals. It says a lot for development and level of this sport. I don't know any other sport in which half of the competitors are less 20 % off the best (5 boulders / 1 boulder - 20 %) Not to mention the funny results you've already mentioned where competitors with result 0/0 are ranked higher then other with 0/1, etc. It's just sad. The gap between best and lasts is huge and I see nothing good in it.
OnLine Arnoud Prinz
  2018-09-11 23:17:01    
You mist the point Bojan :-(
OffLine Bojan
  2018-09-12 07:09:32    
@Nikolina, as in many other sports the real fight for the win is only for the few athletes and only those make "the show" for the audience. For the rest it's "Come together. Celebrate!" and I see nothing wrong with it.
OnLine Arnoud Prinz
  2018-09-12 10:26:02    
Not for the qualies Bojan! Other wise just skip it! There are other people who whant to chear for less good athletes. And also those athletes deserve a nice competition, and a good ranking.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2018-09-12 10:44:50    
@ Bojan: The World Championship is foremost for the athletes. I am sure most of them thought the boulders were too hard and that did not enjoy it as they hoped.

You are of course allowed to have your own personal opinion but please broaden your perspective what would be best based on the experience of the athletes and the spectators.
OffLine Joakim Thommesen
  2018-09-12 10:53:33    
Fantastic looking boulders and thankfully not much parkour style. Great job by the route setters, and fantastic effort by the (top) athletes.

Let's hope for better TV-production in the future, with names of athletes on screen and result lists every now and then.

Good job!
OffLine frank krane
  2018-09-12 14:29:44    
Does anyone know if somewhere a provisional combined result is available? I don't want to spend half an hour to calculate it ...
OffLine Bojan
  2018-09-12 16:56:26    
C'mon guys, with 100+ competitors from 50+ countries you could not expect everyone to make few tops on 5 boulders :P
At WCh's there has always been some guys from 'exotic' countries who could not climb a single boulder (or zone). But you can cheer for them anyway!
If you set one really easy bolder just to 'make them happy', they will still remain at the bottom of the rankings.
I don't say some boulders shouldn't be a little bit easier. The simple criterion to see this is how much it adds to the separation of climbers (down to place #20). In this sense A4 (only one top -- Janja, no zones) was useless, if you cancel it out, the rankings would be exactly the same. But this 'mistake' didn't change much.
If someone wants easier boulders which 'everyone' could top, you need a pre-qualification on easier set of boulders. We have seen this in the past (open with 5 competitors progressing to the usual qualification round), but this takes time and effort, so organisers didn't like it and it was omitted.
Yesterday I suggested a variation of this system (weaker and stronger group) which wouldn't complicate the organisation, but some guys commented this system is unfair ;)
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2018-09-12 18:58:54    
I think IFSC should stipulate how many tops would be ideal so the route setters have something to opt for. I would say in a world championship qualification;

5-10 Topping all 5 boulders
20 Topping at least 3 boulders
Half the field doing at least one out of two zones per boulder

What do you think?
OffLine Hans Boschker
  2018-09-12 23:19:49    
Anything between 20 athletes flash 5 boulders to athletes 10 to 20 manage 1 zone goes. Variation is good.

Same in lead, a qualification where 26 top the route is OK, a qualification where the best climber reaches hold 15 and there is some clear separation around place 26 is also fine...
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2018-09-13 06:32:43    
Please bare in mind also what the athletes think. When nobody tops we mainly see boring and frustrated faces which is not fun for the spectators. Imagine having trained super hard for one year and not making one top but anyhow getting a high ranking.
OffLine Bojan
  2018-09-13 10:24:36    
Imagine a frustrated faces after topping all four routes at the comp and finishing -- second(!).
Nobody topped in men's category, not in the finals, nor in the semis. But I didn't find it boring at all. Much less then women's semis with 4 tops and frustrating final with two.

Lead competition is (should be) about who rich higher. If higher means top -- for just one, the winner -- then it's nice. If no tops, there's no big problem. The big problem is when setters set too easy routes wishing to see one top, but they actually get several and the time decides the winner.
Especially if there are ties after the semis, the final route should be 'super hard' or it's pretty sure time will decide the winner. There were some comments (not mine) after women's finals debacle saying 'You can't beat Janja on height, you can only beat her on time'. I don't believe setters intentionally set too easy route (at least not the final one), but I can understand impressions some people get about pleasing the home crowd...
OffLine rai
  2018-09-13 18:49:28    
@Bojan: you are not the only one to think this. I would just add that Olympics equals business...
OffLine J. Smith
  2018-09-14 22:31:57    
I can't believe Jens. Separation in boulders should be done with number of trials and separation in lead wit split times???! What has such stupidity to do with climbing?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2018-09-14 22:55:19    
I think separation in Lead should be done by countback if the route setters did not get it right. If we still have ties, we have to separate by time and then split times should be used in order to increase the excitement.

In boulder, separation should be done be counting tops and zones. However, in the case of choosing in between two tops all four tops and the six finalists only tops a total of five problems, I think many tops and separation with tries is better for everyone.