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Forum: FRA / News / Kruder wins great show for Slovenia again Login in to contribute
Kruder wins great show for Slovenia again
OffLine 8a.nu
  2019-04-17 00:00:00    
Jernej Kruder was last out into the final where he executed them almost perfectly, doing them all in just eight attempts. He was third into the last boulder which he did first go saying, he thought it was too easy. Later nobody come even close. The big sensation was 15 year old Rei Kawamata who qualified to the final as #2. Last year he won the Youth WCh in Moscow and he also did his first 8B+.

1. Jernej Kruder 44* SLO
2. Adam Ondra 34 CZE
3. Yushiyuki Ogata 33 JPN
4. Anze Peharc 23 SLO
5. Rei Kawamata 13 JPN
6. Vadim Timonov 13 RUS
* 8a presents the results as points by just skipping the Z and t from the normal scoring.
OffLine Joe Crotty
  2019-04-14 23:47:37    
Had this overall feeling watching the men's final that Ondra and Kruder were in a different league than the rest of the field. The first two problems were too easy as a separator for top three climbers. The slab M3 was another example of the "new school" much like W3 which is all about parkour. Thankfully M4 was a true power set and Kruder showed who is the boss!

Ironic that Adam took last spot in his qualifier group to get into semis and then won the semis. Same thing for Jernej except he gets the last spot in the finals, but wins the comp!
OnLine Geo Bush
  2019-04-15 06:05:22    
"Jernej Kruder was last out into the final..."Huh? He was first out in the final. What comp were you watching?
OffLine Jan V'
  2019-04-15 07:46:50    
Sad to say so but both semifinals were premature finals. Finals on the other were not so good, especially women's final but men's too. Bad route setting for both men and women. Route setters can't set finals this way where lots of boulders are easily climbed (flashed or climbed within couple tries). That puts huge pressure on last starter. This way winning semifinals becomes actually disadvantage.

Adam Ondra was in his own league in semifinals, where he showed who is the boss when it comes to really hard boulders.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-04-15 09:07:27    
The friction is better starting first so that is part of the reason why Ondra and Kruder had an advantage starting first in the semi and the final. It was easy to see especially on the last boulder where first Kruder did it on first try and then the four guys came and did chalk and sweet up the holds like 30 times before Ondra. Clearly, the last problem was harder for Ondra in comparison to have Kruder felt it.

If it would have been the other way around Ondra might have won.
OffLine Mark Nauser
  2019-04-15 09:54:42    
I don't agree. Majority of competitors had no issues reaching the zone hold - it was the toe hook that mattered - Kruder was the only one using toe hook on right handhold. If Ondra (or others) would use toe hook instead of (unsuccessfully) trying the heel hook there, they would have better chances.

So I disagree that friction even played a role on M4 - Kruder simply found the best (the only?) solution, others did not. Simple as that.
OffLine ze marko
  2019-04-15 09:55:18    
To me Ondra took too long to figure out the beta more than anything. Had he tried the left hand on the top of the volume before, he'd have time to try properly the second section of the final problem
OffLine Jan V'
  2019-04-15 10:01:56    
@Jens Ondra did not find right beta on last boulder, hence last boulder was harder for him; never found that heel hook which was key. This should strike you immediately but you've failed to notice. It had nothing to do with deteriorating conditions.

With six people in finals, deteriorating friction is none or negligible. That first starter does boulder first try is not necessarily prove of deteriorating conditions. Most likely just a coincidence. Even Kameyama who started penultimate had no problems to get to the zone hold. Furthemore, Kruder and Timonov strated among last in semifinals yet mad it to the finals. Ans so on.

As always you are using arguments as it suits you, blatantly contradicting what you've said previously. Do not even start with 'deteriorating friction' argument when talking about 6 people in finals when you've previously advocated that conditions aren't deteriorating much talking about 115 starters in Meiringen qualifiers!
OffLine arrey leeman
  2019-04-15 13:06:42    
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OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-04-15 13:11:25    
Obviously the conditions deteriate for each try each climber does. Of course it is very marginal for each try but nevertheless you often see climbers asking for brushing even after their first try. I am sure the conditions played a factor and possibly the results would have been the opposite with opposite starting order, also due to mental pressure.

Why do you think Kruder talked positive about starting first?
OffLine arrey leeman
  2019-04-15 13:14:50    
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OffLine Tuf La
  2019-04-15 13:19:07    
The conditions may degrade significantly over the final round, but Kruder was clearly superior on the last boulder...
From Ondra's instagram:
"Congrats to @kruderjernej for the well-deserved victory"
OffLine Mark Nauser
  2019-04-15 15:22:44    
The friction DID NOT influence the results on M4 - this is just another baseless theory of Jens.

First, the issue was not friction, but beta - no climber had issues controlling the zone hold due to bad friction - instead, they missed the key part of beta - the toe hook. Second, conditions do not deteriorate significantly during the final round, when only 6 competitors use them - the holds&volumes are not brand new in the first place which means that they've been used before and they are already "degraded" somewhat. Third, they are constantly cleaned during the attempts.

I have another theory - I am sure that if places would be switched and Ondra would start first and flash M4, Jens would not be talking about this at all. Unlike his theory, mine is based on something - Jens's past comments.
OffLine Jan V'
  2019-04-15 15:39:56    
@Jens Ondra did not find RIGHT BETA on last boulder, hence last boulder was harder for him; never found that heel hook which was key. This should strike you immediately but you've failed to notice. This is important because fact Ondra did not climb last boulder was argument for your theory. Now when you know it had nothing to do with friction but was matter of wrong beta...you choose not to react. Three people write about that but even then you fail to acknowledge that!!! I don't have words for this behavior.

As always you are using arguments as it suits you, blatantly contradicting what you've said previously. Do not even start with 'deteriorating friction' argument when talking about 6 people in finals when you've previously advocated that conditions aren't deteriorating much talking about 115 starters in Meiringen qualifiers!

"Obviously the conditions deteriate for each try each climber does. Of course it is very marginal for each try but nevertheless you often see climbers asking for brushing even after their first try." - obviously nothing is obvious about that, because many times climbers do not ask for brushing holds between tries. Asking every time can be just psychological thing.

"Why do you think Kruder talked positive about starting first?" Because of less psychological pressure, not because deteriorating conditions. When you go out first and boulders are quite easy so you flash them or climb within couple attempts, that logicaly puts pressure on every following starter logicaly being biggest for the last one.
OffLine Jan V'
  2019-04-15 15:46:01    
@Mark "I have another theory - I am sure that if places would be switched and Ondra would start first and flash M4, Jens would not be talking about this at all. Unlike his theory, mine is based on something - Jens's past comments."

Agree with that. Jens came with "deteriorating friction theory" only because my 2019-04-15 07:46:50 comment. Last week when I wrote in qualis conditions might deteriorate he argumented that conditions are not deteriorating much even during qualis (where there is dozens of startes). Suddenly he's argumenting that conditions are deteriorating when talking about only six finalists. Pretty strange change of opinion and says a lot. And he ignores counter-arguments. Says a lot, too.

P.S. basically when one has different opinion then Jens, he's out with arguments why you you are not right (and sometimes is he right, but not this time or when we talked about why Japanese are dominant). Basically once he says something he'll advocate that even if it's clearly rubbish, never minding what others say and never minding facts. Never admitting that he could actually be wrong. Always others are wrong :)
OffLine Andrew Itkonen
  2019-04-15 16:33:16    
Imagine how well Janja would do if only she would come out first in finals instead of usually coming out last. She might just be able to win a competition or two.
OffLine Steve
  2019-04-15 18:02:54    
Indeed! It is really a shame. If they changed the starting order, then Jania would sometimes have a chance against her competitors.

Anyway, on this one I totally agree with Jens. The last boulder was made for short people and Adam was too tall to have a chance. If the route setters would have set a boulder that is suitable for all sizes, he might have made 5th place instead of 6th.
OffLine Rufus5.12
  2019-04-17 11:28:27    
Definitely doesn't hold weight this time Jens.... Look at Meiringen. Mr. Ondra was the last competitor in the finals yet he was the only person to finish the final boulder. So obvious it's all about the beta. Laughing hard at your BS! HaHaHaHaHaHa!!!
OffLine Jan V'
  2019-04-18 12:36:19    
Good, guys. Now we can see Jense's typical deep self-reflection :) He thought about it minute or to and then came here and typed: "sorry guys, I have been wrong. I haven't noticed that Adam actually never found right beta and that was the reason why he couldn't climb M4. That friction worsening theory of mine was rubbish, at least in this case certainly. Furthemore I've realized friction is not decreasing in finals at faster rate than in qualis, so if I've said in qualis friction doesn't increase much, clearly at finals friction isn't increasing significantly or maybe not at all."
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-04-18 12:53:44    
There is actually a debate in regards how IFSC should deal with the worsening friction problem in the Routesetter FB group. It seems many among these guys think this is a problem which confirms what i have said for 12 years.

Clearly you can win even with worse friction as it is marginal.
OffLine Mark Nauser
  2019-04-18 13:48:40    
Excellent to hear that you agree that in M4 in Moscow, friction played minor, if any role and beta was key.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-04-18 15:25:28    
I am still of the same opinion as it seems many route setters are.

"Clearly, the last problem was harder for Ondra in comparison to have Kruder felt it. If it would have been the other way around Ondra might have won."
OffLine Steve
  2019-04-18 19:25:17    
Sure! If it was the other way around, he might have won. With the same probability with which we might have won the competition as it was. No difference.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-04-18 19:28:34    
We already know the probability (100 %) that Kruder won and Ondra was second.
OffLine Mark Nauser
  2019-04-19 08:44:26    
Yes, due to beta difference on last boulder. Or do you disagree with route setters that beta played a major factor?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-04-19 08:47:28    
The beta difference was probably the major factor but we do not know if Kruder could have done his sequence if he had climbed last which obviously would have mean worse friction for him.
OffLine Mark Nauser
  2019-04-19 09:31:58    
No, we do not know. We also don't know if Ondra or anyone else would have done this boulder starting first. We also don't know if Ondra or anyone else would have done this boulder if they would use the same beta as Kruder. Because no one did - they all used different hand and feet positions than Kruder.

What we do know, though, is that all climbers were able to reach the zone hold without any major friction issues.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-04-19 10:01:53    
If you look at the video you will see that everyone but Kruder had difficulties reaching the zone. I think this partly can be explained by worse friction.

If I understood it correctly, the spotlight was lightened up just seconds before Kruder entered the stage. Obviously, all holds got worse friction as they were heated up. It might be that Ondra was forced to go for his sequence as the friction was so much worse for him.
OffLine Mark Nauser
  2019-04-19 10:13:16    
I disgress - you ignore way too many factors for your conclusions to have any meaning. Ondra was using right hand on zone hold - other competitors had no issues using left hand similar to Kruder. They were even controlling it very well for prolonged time - but they all missed toe hook. And now you are even bringing temperature and headlights into argument? Did you measure any of this or is this just another feeble attempt at saving your untenable theory which ignores all facts that do not agree with it?

Anyway, I feel I have presented my arguments clearly. As usual, there is no point in further debate with you. Adieu.
OffLine Steve
  2019-04-19 10:44:29    
"We already know the probability (100 %) that Kruder won and Ondra was second."

Can't argue with that kind of smarts...
OffLine Jan V'
  2019-04-23 12:36:25    
I can't believe my eyes. At the end we've really forced Jens to type this: "The beta difference was probably the major factor". That is huge success guys, don't you realizace that? Jens admitted he was wrong, only he did it his way - without admitting it openly. That would be of course fair play to us all and first and foremost to himself...well I guess to admit they were wrong just exceeds abilities of some people.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-04-23 13:09:29    
I have not changed my my mind. I still stand back what I originally said. "If it would have been the other way around (Kruder starting last and Ondra first) Ondra might have won."
OffLine Jan V'
  2019-04-23 13:21:01    
@Jens too late to manipulate, Jens :))) You've already wrote this: "The beta difference was probably the major factor." You can try manipulating as you wish, but meaning of those words is very clear. Sooo loooong :)