GO TO GLOBAL SITE   se es us fr za it
de ca au no
at br ru ch
gb pl nl sk
Home | News | Videos | Articles | Gallery | Crags | Gyms | Search - Tick List | Forum | Ranking | Blogs | Contact | New Member
Forum: GLOBAL / News / Third 9a in five days by Gabri Moroni Login in to contribute
Third 9a in five days by Gabri Moroni
OffLine 8a.nu
  2013-09-30 00:00:00    
Gabri Moroni is setting some kind of record having done three 9a's in five days including The Elder Statesman today. According to Markus Bock's Frankenjura list including 15 routes 9a and harder, Gabri's three are ranked #2, #4 and #13. He has previously done Action Directe #5 in the list.

What have you done to be in the best shape of your life?
When I came back from Brazil in July I felt in my worst shape ever and over weight, so I trained hard for a couple of months. Mainly campus board and outdoor climbing for sure. Nothing extreme but four times a week and sometimes double sessions. During this time I also stay healthy, I mean eating well and not to much.
Click to Enlarge Picture
OffLine Joel Brady
  2013-09-30 19:26:19    
"some kind of record"...probably a world record.
OffLine Tuf La
  2013-09-30 21:02:04    
The only similar performance in such short time I see is Enzo Oddo with 3 9a in a week... I think it was last year...
OffLine Christian Knoll
  2013-09-30 21:46:09    
Jakob Schuberts performance in Santa Linya comes into my mind, with him doing three 9a's in two days, respectivly doing 5 9a's in two weeks....
OffLine Bartholomäus Schaumschläger
  2013-10-01 09:49:27    
I think i finally figured out the algorithm behind 8a.nu news. in Pseudocode: for x in ALL_CLIMBERS_IN_THE_WORLD{   rand = get_random_number()   routes[] = get_number_of(rand)_ticks_from_climber(x)   print x.name + " is setting some kind of record having done " + rand         + " climbs in " + routes.calculate_ascent_interval()         + " including " + routes.get_random_route().name + "."         + "I think no one has done this before. Interview with the man is comming up soon." } I would name this algorithm "Records everywhere", it works because the probability of different climbers having done the same random routes in the same time-interval is very low and can be even lowered if you calculate the time-difference up to microseconds of the ascent. this should also eliminate ascents where multiple climbers climb the same climbs one after another like a Fontainebleau-parcour. Example from my ticklist: "Bartholomäus Schaumschläger is setting some kind of record having done 3 climbs on one day in less than 3 hours, 20 minutes, 60 seconds, 2 milliseconds and 1 microsecond including "Frau muster" in Cresciano Flash. I think no one has done this before. Interview with the man is comming up soon." cheers!
OffLine Christian Stohr
  2013-10-01 10:26:51    
Your coding style is weird. Arguments in the middle of a method name, who taught you that? And for what you did you don't need an "algorithm". What it basically does is just fill in spots in a text. Every 2nd grade student can do that. Choose wisely where to use technology and where not. Anyways, even if the news sound kinda the same, I'm happy to read about it. Bartholomäus, if you want to put in the work, there are algorithms to create new news articles based on old ones. To make those better you'd have to filter within the old articles the route names and stuff, which should be replaced by the current "news". If you then go ahead and steal literary property and put articles from other climbing news sites into the pool of old articles, you can create the ultimate and every reader on the internet satisfying climbing news article. But I guess making fun of Jens/other authors sounds more like you.
OffLine Bartholomäus Schaumschläger
  2013-10-01 11:36:22    
christian im of course using the iso 1337 pseudocode standard here. after meditating many weeks on 8a.nu i came to the conclusion that these sort of algorithm's can save many peoples time to actually go climbing and do something for the sport so i guess i'm fine with using technology here. we can still have a debate on technology-climbing-ethics if you want. i'm asking myself now why you sound unhappy speaking about this algorithm when it generates news you are happy to read about? and maybe i allready generated markov climbing news but it seems to me the world is not ready for it yet. at the end you are right when you say that making fun sounds more like me :P
OffLine Henning Wang
  2013-10-01 15:05:41    
The question I have to ask is, how did this become 3 in 5 days?  Yes he made the red-points of the 3 routes in 5 days, but he had spent days on some of the routes before the actual red-point, some over several years.  Now to me it seems strange to sum this up to 5 days and call it a record.  Had he been on a 5 day trip and never tried any of the routes before, sure, 5 days, some sort of record, but that is just not the case is it? Say Adam spends 3 months in Spain.  9 weeks he spends on la Dura Dura and the rest he spends climbing on easier routes 9a/9b to stay fit.  Then one day he sends la Dura Dura and free to climb on other routes, he cleans up the others he´s been trying as well.  Now if you start counting from when he red-pointed the 9b+ he might well have climbed another few 9b´s and 9a´s during the next 2-3 days. Did he then climb 9b+, 9b, 9a+ and 2x 9a in 3 days?  No, he red-pointed them whit-in a 3 day period, but spent 3 months climbing them..     
OffLine ps
  2013-10-01 16:19:05    
I did not see in Adam's tick list that he managed to send 3 9a/harder routes in 5 days, so yeah, it looks like a record. I would say newsworthy. You random news generator is missing grade - no one is interested in the news like someone has sent 3 6a routes in 5 days, even if those are FA right? So please stop whining on everything.
OffLine Bartholomäus Schaumschläger
  2013-10-01 16:51:44    
contragulations to ps. beside christian who only complained about syntax stuff, you sir have found the bug i placed there for the attentive reader. wouldn't be a problem to add anyway. i didn't catch me whining yet tho. maybe i try to now: nobody needs those kind of stupid records. its totally amazing that he climbed that many hard routes period. by comparing you disrespect him and others. of course all of you would go nuts if jens would have written "he is a even better climber as adam ondra because he has not been able to climb three 9a in 5 days." but the record-category thingy implies exactly that. and adam propably only didn't because he didn't even care to try. if jens had written something like "gabriel moroni seems to be in top form having climbed 3 9a in 5 days. gabriel is ranked ..." it would have been as exciting to read and as informative without opening another stupid climbing-category (climbing as many 9a or harder in 5 days) that nobody needs.
OffLine Henning Wang
  2013-10-01 19:43:32    
ps... You completely missed my point. I never said Adam actually sent the routes I mentioned in that time. The point was that he spent time prior to the 5 days or what ever on the routes so in reality they where not done in 5 days. How hard is that to understand? ...   But if you really want to look at it from the time of the first red-point no matter how much time was spent before hand, Adam actually did la Dura Dura 9b+, Fight or Flight 9b and Palestina 9a inside of 6 days.  Looking at those numbers 3x 9a in "5 days" don´t sound so much like a record to me...  
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2013-10-01 21:20:47    
"Some kind of record" and you get so upset that instead of giving Gabri credit you start a total meaningless discussion. Please show some respect.
OffLine Rafael Passos
  2013-10-01 22:16:10    
Please respect the forum ethics.
OffLine Christian Stohr
  2013-10-01 23:17:30    
You might want to explain your rage, Rafael? Stay classy.
OffLine Simon Fonn Storevik
  2013-10-01 23:28:57    
i think he is saying Gabri chopped the bolts on his project, even if he spesifically asked him not to. Reason what aparantly not given. Some speculation has been made towards Gabri trying to dance with Rafaels girlfriend a few years earlier, and Rafael had been terribly rude in his response, but these are unconfirmed rumours. Some witnesses have been heard claiming that Rafael removed the bolts himself just so he could rage on Gabri online, and use capital letters more than one would usually tolerate, and that he used the bolts to make a contribution to the local arte fare.
OffLine Thiago Souto
  2013-10-01 23:38:28    
Moderated. Please respect the forum ethics.
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2013-10-02 00:04:33    
It looks like a lose-lose situation to me, whether Enzo & Gabri chopped the bolts or Rafael did. Sad news :(
OffLine pbla4024
  2013-10-02 10:13:31    
There is some aggressive censorship going on. All contribution from Brazilians was deleted.
OffLine Henning Wang
  2013-10-02 10:16:24    
Jens, what has this to do with respect? I´v got nothing but respect for Gabri´s achievements.  He has been nothing but honest about how much time and effort he put into these routes.  What I am critical about is the way this news is being portrayed. 5 days is 5 days, just like on-sight is on-sight.  You can´t fall of a route, try it again a year later and "on-sight" it, and in the same way you can´t say you did a route in 1 day if you spent 3 days on it...    If you want to make up some sort of record, fine, but do it based on facts, or at least with the correct title.. If not I´ll stick to Adam´s 9b+, 9b and 9a in "6 days" as the record.. 9b+ on it´s own should count for quite a lot of 9a´s...
OffLine A. Tothek
  2013-10-02 10:47:30    
henning, i have a (ironic) question, did gabri climb these 3 routes (in these 5 days) or not ;-)

you are critical about how this news is beeing portrayed? portray it different! (or better objective ;-)
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2013-10-02 11:28:05    
At least one of the two Brazilian comments was absolutely civilised, yet it got censored. The Brazilian ESPN page talks about this, some people have provided what LOOKS like evidence of Enzo on replying to questions about the issue. I find it strange, though, that if they were there in Brazil in June and July, the issue comes out almost two months after their departure...
OffLine Christian Stohr
  2013-10-02 12:56:05    
Thiago's comment was perfectly fine in my view. He explained without raging why Rafael was raging. I dont see why Thiago's comment was removed. I think I'll start logging every page on 8a.nu that I visit, just in case more censorship is coming up. Seriously, Jens, total d*** move.
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2013-10-02 13:10:30    
When sombody is using the word "idiot" of course this is a violation of the forum ethics.
OffLine Neudson
  2013-10-02 13:20:46    
Jens, I respect and agree you moderated Rafael's comment. But Thiago's was very reasonable, and contained no offenses towards Gabri and Enzo. It only stated what happened here in Brazil when they visited the Itatiaia National Park, and allegedly chopped several bolts on a route equiped by Brazilian climbers. I strongly suggest you review your "forum ethics" regarding removing comments in here if you don't want to read the word "censorship" repeatedly throughout this forum. 
OffLine Neudson
  2013-10-02 15:34:04    
For the guys, Gabri and Enzo, if any of you get to read this, if this incident really happened, if Enzo, as people here are saying, really chopped those bolts, you could go on, assume the mistake and apologize. No big deal. Everyone make mistakes. I do not agree with the attitude of some people here in Brazil, shouting that you should never come back to here, that your are not welcome, and believe that maybe you did not want to talk about it mainly because of the way people had approached you on the case, accusing and being rude. Maybe you are getting hatred messages in your Facebook inbox, but know that not everyone here agrees with this. That being said...just be, as Jens say, honest and humble, and assume the mistake if it really happened. 
OffLine Thiago Souto
  2013-10-02 16:51:16    
This was not a "mistake". It was a deliberately act of cowardly. The route was there for 20 years, and then some strong guys came to our country (with our rules, and our ethics) and simply decided to chop the bolts of the routes, cause they've decided that they were unnecessary? I'll go to Frankenjura, and I will chop the bolts of Action Directe because I am super strong and I can solo it :)   The route was easy indeed, a 6b+, but if this become common practice, there will be no beginners in climbing anymore. It seems that besides the above mentioned act, they've also opened a new route (in the same park, where you have to have an authorization to open routes) without asking for the aforementioned authorization.
OffLine Victor Macedo
  2013-10-02 16:59:18    
 how they say: Il rispetto è buono e mantiene i denti a posto! grazie.
OffLine Christian Stohr
  2013-10-02 17:11:32    
woah, wait, they chopped off bolts on a 6b+ ? I assumed it was a harder route, french 8th grade, and was like "gee, it's rude but if they thank their balls are made of steel, w/e". But why would they go and alter a 6b+, which is in no way a challenge for them, but is for other people. And they should know that. Now I'd really like to hear their intentions on that.
OffLine Neudson
  2013-10-02 17:16:37    
I did not say mistake by meaning they did not know what they were doing. Of course they did. But this attitude, this hate and offenses, will not bring the bolts back, and will not help at all at making them apologize for the error, if you prefer this word, and maybe compensate in some way for their wrong doing. 
OffLine Thiago Souto
  2013-10-02 17:24:46    
Yes Christian. Till the point where a trad gear is possible to be placed (18 meters from the ground), the route is a 6b+. I don't know what is the grade after that.. It says in the news also that they've used the bolts when they've climbed it..  Neudson: I don't expect the bolts back, my comments are only to let the climbing community know what those guys did when they came here. As you can see, 8a.nu is only interested about GRADES, but when it comes to this kind of fact involving climbers that are always on the front page here, 8a closes its eyes, and do not allow people to inform what happened.
OffLine Thiago Souto
  2013-10-02 17:24:50    
Yes Christian. Till the point where a trad gear is possible to be placed (18 meters from the ground), the route is a 6b+. I don't know what is the grade after that.. It says in the news also that they've used the bolts when they've climbed it..  Neudson: I don't expect the bolts back, my comments are only to let the climbing community know what those guys did when they came here. As you can see, 8a.nu is only interested about GRADES, but when it comes to this kind of fact involving climbers that are always on the front page here, 8a closes its eyes, and do not allow people to inform what happened.
OffLine Neudson
  2013-10-02 17:37:03    
Yes, Thiago, and that's what i am doing here. But in my opinion when we lose our temper, and start being offensive, we lose the chance to make this a bigger case, and let the international midia know of that. 
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2013-10-02 17:39:51    
I will take to Gabri as i will meet him on Kalymnos in a few dates. Information like this is interesting but please open a new thread. You could also write a short article without any speculation, just pure facts v

The news informs about Gabris three 9a's during five days.

Please read the Code of ehtics before writing anything and be respectful.
OffLine Victor Macedo
  2013-10-02 18:07:36    
.
OffLine Neudson
  2013-10-02 18:35:48    
Só um detalhe Victor...se os caras se desculpam publicamente assumindo o erro, a gente consegue que outros fiquem sabendo do feito e já vão vir pro Brasil sabendo. Só dizer que eles não são bem vindos, e hostilizar os caras caso eles voltem aqui, não adianta, pois outros podem vir e fazer o mesmo. Ou vamos hostilizar todo e qualquer estrangeiro que colocar os pés aqui agora?
OffLine Rafael Passos
  2013-10-02 18:38:53    
http://www.espn.com.br/post/359440_enzo-oddo-e-gabriele-moroni-transgridem-eticas-e-regras-da-escalada-no-brasil   Hey Jens, can u please explain me what is wrong on my comment???Maybe my bad English!!!  I'm really angry about what they did here, AND FOR ME CLIMBING AREAS ETHICS ARE AWAAAAAAAAAAY MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR FORUM ETHICS, don`t you think? 8a.nu is climbing web site, not a what jens want to show web site. You are doing the same as they did, maybe you guys think you are better than us but no man you are just a human being and nothing more!!! Neudson I´m really sorry if I do not represent our country how do u want! For sure I was a bit agressive and maybe lost a chance to make more noise, u did perfectly man! Thanks for that! But the worse is look to some "famous" brasilian climbers who defend Enzo and Gabri! Sad sad sad!!! AGAIN JENS, don´t metter for me if he climbs 10 9c+ in 30 minutes, don´t u see he don´t respect climbing ethics, other cultures, other countrys, enviroment, etc..... He is the worse climber in the world and is a shame you still wanna leave a climber like this in YOUR FRONT PAGE!!!  YOU SHOULD DEFINITELY PUT THIS NEWS THERE, and even with you erase my msg WILL BE ON ESPN WEB SITE what looks way more serius about climbing than 8a.nu wich sounds weird! That´s my msg to them. If u want u can erase again, that´s your website and YOUR FORUM!!! BUT THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE MSG, JUST RAGE and the fact u wanna protect them instead of BRINGING NEWS!!!! Let people see Jens, please! Is TRUE, totally true! Or u just like half true, like this 3 9a's in five days!!! Hey Gabri, congrats! BUT I DON'T GIVE A **** FOR YOU AND EVERYTHING YOU ARE CLIMBING FROM NOW ON! WHO DO YOU THINK U ARE TO TAKE BOLTS OUT of a 20 years old route in a different country !!! MAN U CAN NOT CHANGE HISTORY OR MAKE EVERYTHING THAT YOU WANT!!!! I'M VERY GLAD U DON'T CAME TO COCALZINHO AND FOR SURE YOU ARE NOT WELCOME IN BRASIL ANYMORE!!!! Enzo e Gabri, don´t mess around in our country! Here is not your backyard and from now on you guys are not welcome!!! GO HOME AND DO WHATEVER U WANT, NOT HERE!!!!  YOU GUYS ARE THE WORSE CLIMBERS IN THE WORLD, THAT'S YOUR WORLD RECORD!!!! DON´T KNOW THE RULES, DON´T RESPECT HISTORY AND THINK YOU ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS!!! SHIT MAN, LOOK FOR YOU, ARE U REALLY HAVING FUN??? THAT´S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ON ROCK CLIMBING, CAN U FEEL THAT??  TRY TO MAKE GOOD HISTORY MAN, IS POSSIBLE FOR YOU BUT U NEED HUMILITY!!!! U ARE EXACTLY THE EQUAL EVERYBODY, NOTHING MORE!!!
OffLine Rafael Passos
  2013-10-02 18:47:33    
If you put this news on we can make a BIG, HUGE AND BEAUTIFUL FORUM right there! But if not we gonna keep trying to show THE NEWS of Gabri here, on his 3 f****** 9´s in 5 days for people know how good his is!   Take the bolts out of a 20 years old route JENS, that's ok for u ??? without people be angry??? Enzo Oddo was not even born!!! PUT YOUR LIKE BRAIN TO THINK HOW SERIOUS IS THAT!!!! If continues like that this kids gonna fu.. all climbing areas!!!
OffLine giovanni
  2013-10-02 18:58:14    
Rafael, why don't you just grab a beer and chillout !!?? Anyway, after 20 years maybe its time to chop the bolts and re-bolt.. why don't you just do that ?And by the way, it is the LINE that makes history, not the metal on it !! 
OffLine Rafael Passos
  2013-10-02 19:10:42    
Hey Giovanni, is not about the route, the bolts and the climber! IT´S ABOUT RESPECT!!!! I don´t even know the route and I´m very glad they did not came in Cocalzinho, but IF THATS OK I going to Arco to take some bolts out, ok??? COuld be Energia=mc, what u think?? 
OffLine Rafael Passos
  2013-10-02 19:12:35    
Gabri should be a shame for all Italians, not an example!!! 
OffLine Christopher Hacon
  2013-10-02 20:17:48    
Wow. This really is not painting a pretty picture of climbing in Brazil! By the way "Il rispetto è buono e mantiene i denti a posto!" means "respect is good because it keeps your teeth in place!"
OffLine giovanni
  2013-10-02 21:38:11    
So  Rafael, this interesting.... you don't  know the route; do you at least know the person you are insulting? have you ever talked to him/them ? By the way, just to talk about chopping bolts.. in the next days I am going to remove the original bolts on a route from 1987 in Arco. They are in very bad conditions (very rusty 8mm bolts...I would NOT want to fall on them!! ) and I'm going to rebolt the route. If you want to do that I shall be very glad !! Its going to be hard work ...I think It is important to remove equipment that is too old or not safe, because especially beginners who don't have experience may trust it and get hurt badly or die...(see the case of worn out - sharp perma-draws) The original bolts on energia have been removed and since about 8-10 years it has stainless steel glue bolts which are in perfect conditions.
OffLine Renato Passos (Mineiro)
  2013-10-03 01:22:31    
Giovanni, a questão não foi eles terem tirados os bolts porque estavam velhos e perigosos, a manutenção de via no Brasil é bem rigorosa quanto a isso…A questão foi a modificação de uma via antiga, no caso uma fenda de meio corpo que possuia 4 chapeletas onde se cabe camallot #6 e #7, coisa que no Brasil não é muito comum, e como eles usaram estes camallots para fazer a via sem utilizar as chapas retiraram as chapas, este foi um problema…Outro problema é que como é um parque nacional a abertura de vias de escalada tem que se passar por uma autorização da administração do parque, regra que eles não seguiram…O que queremos como brasileiros é um pouco de respeito com nossas regras ainda mais que ambos, Gabriele e o Enzo, creio eu, foram muito bem recebido aqui…Será que voces entendem isso ou vou ter que traduzir tudo para o ingles, afinal toda essa discussão tem qual finalidade?
OffLine Victor Macedo
  2013-10-03 15:13:58    
wtf?
OffLine Victor Macedo
  2013-10-03 15:14:06    
vergogna!
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2013-10-03 15:43:35    
From what I have understood Moroni did not chop any bolts.
OffLine Victor Macedo
  2013-10-03 16:53:31    
.
OffLine Victor Macedo
  2013-10-03 16:53:46    
ok, mas vamo combinar.. ele soh disse q ta no worst shape ever pq tomou um pau dos onzimo brasileiros heaiuehiueahiaue
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2013-10-03 17:02:22    
The screenshots on the ESPN article don't really seem to do a favour to either Enzo or Gabri...
OffLine Rafael Passos
  2013-10-03 22:13:52    
Moderated.
OffLine Victor Macedo
  2013-10-03 23:18:53    
esquece isso rafinha. deixa ... mas ai, moroni passou mal aqui, por isso disse q tava "worst shape"... o sebo deve ter sucumbido a missão dele huiaehiuheaiuehaiueaiueaiue
OffLine
  2013-10-04 13:04:23    
-
OffLine Victor Macedo
  2013-10-04 13:37:56    
freedom of speech? hmmm i dont think so...
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2013-10-05 06:43:04    
I have talked to Gabri. He has not been part of the chipping and he has was not at the scene when it happend. One of the guys accusing him for the chipping here in the forum has even sent him his apologize but seems not to have the courage to do it here. Please be more resoectful in the forum and base your post on facts not just on false rumours.
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2013-10-06 12:59:45    
The guy who accused Mironi has told me he sent Moroni his apologizes. Do you not think it would have been nuce of him to also write in the forum that he was wrong talking bad about Moroni?

Now it was me who had to defend Moroni presenting facts saying the rumour spread by some guys here were wrong.
OffLine Raul Silveira
  2013-10-07 00:31:23    
-
OffLine Christian Stohr
  2013-10-07 13:42:09    
Jens, your censorship policy is ridiculous. Go ahead and deactivate my account, too. I don't care. But maybe first think about how everyone looks at 8a.nu right now. Oh and don't tell me this post is against forum ethics.
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2013-10-07 14:32:43    
This news related to Moronis rhree 9a'a. Then he was accused for chopping which had nothing to do with 9a. It turned out the chopping was totally wrong. I had to clear things up when then some guys called me bad names. Please respect the 9as by Moroni.
OffLine Christian Stohr
  2013-10-07 14:59:53    
This has nothing to do with respecting or not respecting someones ascents, this has more to do with how you react and how you protect someone. Should I open a new thread for this? But then please don't disrespect the topic by closing the thread or deleting more posts just because you don't like this sort of criticism.
OffLine Lucas Marques
  2013-10-07 15:54:38    
hey guys, let me say that rout was bouted in 2007 , not 20 years ago, people dont know nothing... kkkkk, rafael , climb more talk less... and U guys are WELCOME HERE ALWAYS!!! always!! your contribution for we here was awesome! tHANKS FOR THE AMAZING ROUTS THAT U SET UP HERE IN PASSA VINTE!! ;) vAMOSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
OffLine Thiago Souto
  2013-10-07 17:00:19    
-
OffLine Christian Stohr
  2013-10-07 17:26:12    
Last resort, when you don't know any better: start complaining about grammar from other people.
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2013-10-07 17:28:10    
It was one guy who did the chopping and Moroni was not at the scene when it happend.

It is really bad to say he was involved based on rumours.
OffLine Victor Macedo
  2013-10-07 17:44:48    
o moroni até agora não se pronunciou; o jens larssen sabe menos do que qualquer um a história e só fala merda; abrir uma via irada no passa vinte não exclui a cupabilidade de atos anteriomentes práticados; chupa essa história e bora escalar galera.
OffLine Raul Silveira
  2013-10-07 18:21:27    
.
OffLine Christopher Hacon
  2013-10-07 23:28:47    
Am I the only one bothered by the uncivilized tone of this conversation? If these guys chopped the bolts and opened a route without the necessary authorization, then they should be ashamed. But is it necessary to keep threatening bodily harm and offend other people. Why call Jens a homosexual? what is the point of this?
OffLine Juan Luna
  2013-10-08 00:20:38    
Here is Desnivel's story.  http://desnivel.com/escalada-roca/enzo-oddo-y-gabriele-moroni-reciben-criticas-desde-brasil-por-falta-de-etica
OffLine Juan Luna
  2013-10-08 00:20:47    
Here is Desnivel's story.  http://desnivel.com/escalada-roca/enzo-oddo-y-gabriele-moroni-reciben-criticas-desde-brasil-por-falta-de-etica
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2013-10-08 12:10:26    
My 2 cents Clues in favour of Gabri and Enzo 1 - they left Brasil in July and the issue comes out a WHOLE two months later, which is very strange especially considering that it is a quite popular route graded 6b something (so not some 9a that gets tried once every blue moon, right?) 2 - the post by Simon Fonn Storevik higher up in this thread 3 - what Jens is saying about the apologies (he could provide some evidence, though) Clues against Gabri and Enzo 1 - Neither of them bothered to respond to the accusations. If you know you are innocent, saying it out loud is in your best interest as a sponsored climber (imo). Gabri does post on here so I think it was kind of disappointing not to see him defending himself. 2 - The closest thing to a piece of evidence that we have are the screenshots of the ESPN article, which, again, make it look like the two can't be bothered to deny what should be false accusations. To conclude, the whole thing is based on rumours, there isn't a shred of undisputable evidence, even the FB screenshots COULD be photoshopped, direct links would have been preferable. If somebody actually DID see the two guys chopping the bolts of the route sometime in July, they wouldn't have waited late September to point that out. That to me says that NOBODY really saw them and that therefore it could have been anybody. Most likely the chopping happened much closer to the date when those questions were asked of Gabri and Enzo on FB and the two were already back in Europe. I'm basing this elaboration (i.e. not mathematically demonstrated truth) on the only actual facts we have: 1 - Enzo and Gabri left Brasil in July 2 - The first comment via FB by Eliseu is dated September 24th 3 - Accusations and threats to Gabri made here on 8a.nu For crying out loud, are there even pictures of the holes in the rock left by the removed bolts?
OffLine Renato Passos (Mineiro)
  2013-10-08 15:47:24    
Parece que somente o  Franz the Stampede  esta pensando racionalmente aqui, todo mundo esta se baseando em uma historia contada, ninguem esteve na base da via para saber o que realmente aconteceu.Quanto a abertura da via estive no parque a cerca de 2 semanas atras e os guardas-parque e guias falaram sobre essa via aberta e que eles já haviam retirados as chapas que foram colocadas, mas nao falaram nada de via "destruida" ou desequipada.Como estou proximo tentarei ir até o parque nos proximos dias para saber o quão verdade é tudo.E acho que se temos richas pessoais devemos resolver entre a gente não com o mundo inteiro, cada problema deve ser resolvido individualmente e não misturado isso me parece um pouco atitude de crianca!!!
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2013-10-08 17:54:56    
Renato, obrigado! If you could supply pictures of the current state of the route in the next days, it would be good. For the other Brazilian friends: please provide proper evidence of the issue. I am very sorry to say that at the moment, the only criminal thing for which we have proof and evidence are your threats to Moroni. Jens, if you were absolutely certain of Gabri/Enzo's innocence, it'd be in their interest not to censor anything, because all the threats and insult could be used against what you believe are false accusers. They could be sued for defamation and threats. By deleting what they are saying, you make them look like they are right and it looks like you are covering the truth.
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2013-10-08 19:58:08    
Moroni has told me he did not do it and that he was not at the scene when it happend.
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2013-10-08 20:25:45    
Evidence, Jens, evidence. With Gabri's permission, of course, since it's a private message.
OffLine Thiago Souto
  2013-10-11 21:29:15    
Just to update everyone about the case: The Brazilian Confederation of Climbing and Mountaineering has confirmed that Moroni and Oddo were the responsible for chopping the bolts from a route in Itatiaia, and that they've also opened a new route without the park authorization. This is not my opinion about the case, right Franz? This is not "defamation" as you called it. Still, if someone knows how to read portuguese, it follows the link for the official anouncement from CBME: http://www.cbme.org.br/downloads/2013_10_10_caso_oddo_moroni.pdf
OffLine Erik Lj
  2013-10-12 17:45:16    
Well, for those that don't understand portuguese, the announcement states, in a few words: The Brazilian Climbing and Mountaineering Confederation, alongside with other local climbing federations, conclude that both Oddo and Moroni were responsible for: a) putting bolts on a regulated area (National Park), creating a route while violating the rules of the NP and the proper procedure for doing that. Also it states that later on the same brazilian climber that was with them when they bolted it, was asked to "clean" the rock back to its original state b) violating the Author's Right in terms of destruction of a route previously established by third parties and not by them (the route commented in this thread), citing different international code of ethics and so on. Whats strikes me the most, and let me tell you that I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here: 1) it tells the Name and Surname of both Gabriele Moroni, italian, and Enzo Oddo, French, and not a single name of the brazilian climber that was with them when they bolted the route...I mean, if you are with the "witch hunt mode" ON, at least be fair to "criminalize" all equally, right? 2) it DOESN'T say anything about eyewitnesses of the chopping, but that "according to several comments" from people that HEARD Gabri and Enzo stating that they were responsibles for the chopping. Again, no names. I mean, it could be very well true that both Gabri and Enzo were responsible of these actions, but the announcement sounds as if the original blogger and one of the people that bolted the 6b+ next to the offwidth, Eliseu
Frechou, is part of the Directorate of the Brazilian Climbing Confederation, for what it's worth. Because they say practically the same, without providing further proof and information. I would have expected a more serious statement if they were going to post a witch hunt, and not just a copy paste citing a couple of international climbing laws about Author's Rights.... ps: I don't condone AT ALL actions such as the ones taken by the people that chopped other people's route, that are disrespectful, arrogant and judgmental, but the announcement doesn't say anything new and, quite frankly, is a bit disappointing if you were seeking the "truth"...
OffLine Christian Stohr
  2013-10-12 18:52:11    
Thanks Erik Lj for translating and your own thoughts, that sound pretty reasonable. I would really like to see an official statement to this from Enzo Oddo or Gabriele Moroni. And please no "he talked via facebook to me" without proving it correctly.
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2013-10-12 23:07:17    
Erik Lj said everything I wanted to. If the conclusions of the Brazilian Climbing Confederation are based on the facebook hearsay, it could still be either way to me. NOBODY is above the need of providing evidence. I don't care if you are the head of the Brazilian Climbing Confederation, the president of Brazil, the Pope, whoever. "assado circularam informações em redes sociais e blogs na internet dando conta de que os escaladores Enzo Oddo, francêse Gabriele Moroni,italiano": sorry, not enough evidence. "Em todas as ocasiões estiveram acompanhados por escaladores brasileiros. Infelizmente foram registradas du as irregularida des nessa excursão": ok, so you either mention the escaladores brasileiros as accomplices in this OR, if they disagreed with what they saw Enzo and Gabriele doing, why wait 2 months to report it? And we are heading for repli #80 and we still don't have a single photo/video of the chopped bolts. It'd be a good starting point... Sorry, but this all sounds dodgy and unreliable, just like Jens saying "oh yeah, the guy wrote to me, Moroni wrote to me". Where's the evidence? It sounds like the Bin Laden capture to me. At the same time, neither of the two guys accused has said anything
officially and I am really surprised their sponsors haven't asked them to. Again, I'm not on either side of this, as I said from the start I think it's an embarassing situation for the climbing community in any case, whether it turns out that it's two top, sponsored climbers breaking the rules of a certain location or two local climbers breaking them while accusing somebody else. Either way, we lose as a community, as practitioners of our activity.
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2013-10-13 00:43:13    
I have talked to Gabri on Kalymnos and as also Desnivel published a Oddo and Moroni chopping article has asked to make a short statement on the spanish page.

"He was not even at the scene when the chopping was done".

He also told me that he does not climb trad so chopping like this is of no interest of him. At the same time he said that he does not think that cracks should be bolted but he would never chop bolts.

Personally I think it is just crazy who some media could make him involved based on absolutely nothing. Their story is just totally based un rumours.
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2013-10-13 12:41:14    
Please Jens point out where in the Desnivel article it is asked of Oddo and Moroni to make a statement and where is that statement. "He was not even at the scene when the chopping was done" What evidence is that? Do you even understand the concept of evidence, proof? I'll make it easy for you, I'll speak your language: På engelska, "evidence" betyder "bevis". Fattar du det? You say that their story is totally based on rumours: you are right, it is so far. But so is your defence of Moroni.
OffLine Q
  2013-10-16 22:31:34    
"J’ai d’abord fait « Tiro no Sol » en solo. Je l’ai refaite ensuite avec une corde et l’ai désequipée en rappel. Donc j’assume mon geste et je le revendique. Il faut bannir les spits des fissures de granite". Enzo Oddo http://enzo-oddo.fr/news/2013/10/polemiques-au-bresil/ Moroni told the truth. It's time to apologize... 
OffLine Michael Scharnweber
  2013-10-17 10:27:33    
Regarding an apology, there is still the question whether he opened a route without the required permission, isn't it?
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2013-10-17 10:49:33    
This Moroni did as he was misinformed but he took it out and said he was sorry. The big criticism regards the chopping Enzo Oddo did but for which also Gabri Moroni also got accused for.
OnLine gianluca
  2013-10-17 11:19:06    
Interesting argument by Oddo. He mentions Lionel Terray visiting the same area in 1944 and climbing a roof crack located 200m further, that has been bolted decades later. He also suggests that the route he unbolted could have easily been within Terray's possibilities: maybe Terray did climb it, maybe several "unknowns" after him. So the person having bolted the route can't be 100% sure of being the first ascensionist. (personal note: the argument can be easily generalized and stretched to many other cases)
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2013-10-17 11:45:26    
Although I can somehow understand Moroni's lack of public statements given his knowledge of what Oddo did, I still think it would have done him no harm if he had just said "I can only speak for myself, but I didn't do it". It is not a clean cut situation, though and I can understand either approaches. Well done to the couple of Brazilians who threatened the wrong person without a shred of evidence. That's the spirit of the climbing community. Until Oddo's admission, we didn't even have a proof of the chopped bolts. Again, I don't care if FB says it, it doesn't count as evidence. All in all, good work from Jens although having left the aggressive posts as they were would have been an everlasting monument to the side effects of rushed conclusions.
OffLine Michael Scharnweber
  2013-10-17 12:04:09    
It's interesting, indeed, but going to a foreign country and chopping bolts is something I can only relate to Enzo's youthfulness. Especially as a french guy talking about preserving the limited resource of rock. I mean, should we go and fill in all the chipped holds at Ceüse? If everybody applies his personal ethics (How was that again: "Climbing ethics are like toothbrushes - everybody has ist own!") to every area he or she visitis in such a drastic way, we will have complete anarchy. Let Enzo grow up a little more and see how he thinks about it in a couple of years.
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2013-10-17 14:44:34    
I'm sorry but Enzo acted very, very badly. Not so much because of the chopping itself (his deed alone won't settle these kind of matters, we'll see those discussions again) but for the fact that he took responsibility for it ONLY at the very last chance. Can somebody answer this question: If the accusations (and threats for Moroni) had NOT escalated to what we have seen, would Enzo have written the blog post anyway? In other words, if Enzo believes so firmly that he set a good example here, why not talk about his deed straigt after it happened? Or at least the first time they asked him on FB (September 24 was it?). As much as I personally dislike what happened to the Compressor Route of Cerro Torre, I'll have to give it to H&K for taking the responsibility for it straight away.
OffLine jaap
  2013-10-17 17:55:01    
Boltwars across continents... I thought it was something between local groups of climbers in the same area. But not anymore apparently... I hope the boltchoppers will update the topo's too, so at least we'll know what to bring on a climb... 
OffLine Thiago Souto
  2013-10-17 22:00:32    
It is very hard to believe that Moroni was not present when Oddo chopped the bolts..  and after his statement: ".. personally I think that the bolts were unnecessary.." it is very unlike that they didn't come together to the decision of chopping the bolts. They BOTH climbed the route, do you really want me to believe that they were not together at the same place? Please.. But this is just my opinion. 
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2013-10-17 22:26:44    
Please Thiago as you were one of the guys accusing Moroni it is time to give your apologizes since, 1. Oddo has said he did the chopping. 2. Moroni said he was not at the scene Most climbers would agree with Moroni that the bolts were unnecessary... Please show some respect!
OffLine Thiago Souto
  2013-10-17 23:11:42    
After you sent me a message saying that you knew who did the chopping, I haven't accused anyone. The only thing I did was to inform everyone about CBME's declaration. However, this last post is my opinion about what happened, so you should respect that. 
OnLine gianluca
  2013-10-18 15:44:22    
@Franz no one but the concerned person can answer your question, of course! i can give my personal opinion that not every unbolting action needs a statement afterwards (as if it was an action done primarily for its symbolic value rather than for the material result of having a more aesthethic route). I'll take one example that i know. The crack pitches on the route ULA in Verdon was unbolted by unknowns one or two years ago. Having climbed this part of the route twice after the unbolting action, i can say that it is a safe and exceptionally enjoyable climb in its present state. Bolts would either make it feel "a less significant proposition" (if close - this never was the case for ULA) or lure climbers into trouble - ie going for it without enough climbing level and/or additional gear (heavily runout bolting and sandbag grades, as it was for several years). Nobody spoke up to say "I unbolted ULA to make a statement" and i feel that has been the good choice: after a brief period of shock and debate, everybody seemed to accept the fact that many people like the route in it's present state and that it is possibly even more repeated than before. Somehow, "unbolted ULA" imposed itself as a cooler, more trendy route than the "semi-trad sandbagged dihedral" it had been for 20 years. I think that things could have easily gone out of control if the unbolter(s) spoke up and chose to embody a "public" role as ethic-master (a true bolt war, with the route being bolted and unbolted several times over a short time?) ps A sort of "underground trad movement" has been gaining strenght and popularity during the last years in continental europe and in france as well. I think it is an important context to consider when making an opinion about this case, along with oddo's young age.
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2013-10-19 20:00:08    
Nice try, but I think a sponsored climber of Oddo's visibility, if he does something like that, he should own it from the start and I say that for the good of his cause too. If he's SO sure that's the right way to go, why not do the logical thing about it rather than try to sneak away and look like a douchebag afterwards. If I were perfectly undecided in the to bolt or not to bolt dilemma, upon hearing the way this unbolting was done and its dynamics, I'll probably lean toward the "keep the bolts" side. Truth is, these decisions should be taken collectively, with locals having a major say. In the French case you mention, chances are that most people/locals would have agreed with the unbolting had it been proposed democratically. Clearly, that wasn't the case here in Brazil. There's many other things that Enzo could have done to help the cause of "let's not bolt routes that can be protected perfectly with removable protection". A video or pictures of him soloing the route would have been a kickass way to go about it, for instance, or even him climbing it with friends and whatnot. Anything but the thing he did, basically. Whether you are pro bolts or against bolts, if you are a mature, objective and logical person I think you'd have a hard time not to see this whole ordeal as a sneaky discourtesy that is now being tried to be repackaged as an heroic act of freeing a crag from unnecessary bolts. Too little, too late.