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The best lead competition climber ever
OffLine 8a.nu
  2009-02-10 00:00:00    
1. Muriel Sarkany BEL 3 575: 17< years 1 World C. 2. Angela Eiter AUT 3 175: 9< years 2 World C. 3. Francois Legrand FRA 2 600: 13 years 3 World C. 4. Alexandre Chabot FRA 2 575: 9 years 5. Tomas Mrazek CZE 2 200: 10< years 2 World C. 5. Liv Sansoz FRA 2 200: 11 years 2 world C. 7. Ramon J. Piugblanque1 650: 9< years 1 World C. 8. Maja Vidmar SLO 1 400: 9< years 9. Patxi Usobiaga ESP 1 275: 14< years 9. Yuji Hirayama JPN 1 275: 17 years 11. Francois Petit FRA 1 250: 92 - 04 1 World C. 12. Martina Cufar 925: 92 - 06 1 World C. 100/50/25 points for World Cups and World Youth. 200/100/50 for World Champion. 1992 - 2008.
OffLine Unai
  2009-02-10 16:26:09    
1st: JERRY MOFFATT....and then the others. points are nothing
OffLine Graeme Alderson
  2009-02-10 17:39:02    
You shouldn't include the World Youths in this as people like Big Frank and Yuji were too old to compete when the WYC started. Compare like with like. Really you should only use World Cups as the World Championships didn't start until 1991.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-02-10 18:20:15    
I have not seen Jerry Moffat doing any successful competitions on the IFSC website. However, I think he won three World events in 1998 but I do not know if they are considered official.
Youth results does not effect the overall standing. I am only including results between 1991 - 2008. In the beginning, there were not so many events every year. A score can never be correct, but it gives guidelines who are the best competition climber ever. Chabot was forbidden to compete by his French federation. Anyhow, I was surpriced to see Muriel being #1!
OffLine Graeme Alderson
  2009-02-10 20:43:03    
Do your homework Jens. Check here to find out a bit about Jerry. Think this will take you to a picture of The Man topping out. UIAA World Cups started in 1989. The first one was in May 1989 and was held in the now demolished Queens Hall in Leeds. Everyone was there competing. Robyn Erbesfield won the female event at Leeds and I think went on to be joint 1st overall with Isabelle Patissiere (or was that in 1990). Jerry won the male event after a super final with Simon Nadin and Didier Raboutou (sp?). Simon went on to win the title. I know the IFSC site only goes back to 1991 but the comps did start in 1989
OffLine Graeme Alderson
  2009-02-10 21:02:17    
Got that slightly wrong. Robyn did win in Leeds (competing bizarrely for Alaska I seem to remember) but I can't find out who won the overall title in 1989. In 1990 Isabelle and Lynn Hill were joint champions. And Big Frank won the men's so that might bump him up the rankings a bit. Big Frank should be at no. 1, he was the best and probably always will be.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-02-10 22:18:49    
What was wrong with my homework? Why do you keep critizising med? I have reported that I only include 1991 - 2008, as they are the only available at the IFSC website. You are most welcome to make up your own list based on your regulations. This was the best I could do in a couple of hours, If you have any sources where we can find the comlete WC results before 1991, please inform me.
OffLine Graeme Alderson
  2009-02-10 22:41:03    
I criticise you because you keep making factual errors when you present things as news. When you don't make errors I won't comment (unless its about your anti-E grade crusade but that's a different matter). "What was wrong with my homework". Well I think that its blatantly obvious. You did not know when the World Cups started. " I am only including results between 1991 - 2008. In the beginning, there were not so many events every year." is what you said originally. Now you say you ignored 1989 and 1990 because these were not on the IFSC site. Please be consistent. Also in 1996 there were only 3 WC's (and 4 in 94 & 95) so your (now seemingly abandoned) hypothesis that early results don't somehow count because "there were not so many events every year" seems flawed. Unfortunately I don't know where there are copies of the results from 1989 or 1990. It would be good to get them on the IFSC site so the history is complete.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-02-10 23:23:42    
If I present like 20 news every week there will always be some mistake. However, in this case you have actually missunderstood me. This is easy to do if your #1 object is to find errors. I know that WC started 1989 as it it stated on the IFSC website. Now try to read what I said and it will get a new meaning and your second point will also be explained. "I am only including including resuts between 1991 - 2008. In the beginning, there were not so many events every year". Do you get it, I just wrote so to say that the ones who competed from 1991 - 1997 did not compete as many times as later.
I guess if there is like 40 000 persons who are reading my news, there will always be some who are mainly focusing on finding errors. It is rather frustrating. "A score can never be correct, but it gives guidelines who are the best competition climber ever."
OffLine ian Dunn
  2009-02-11 09:24:35    
I agree with Graeme here, the World Cups started in 1989, and not to include those results just shows a lack of effort in researching a story properly and disrespect to the climbers who competed before 1991. I have been following competition climbing since the begining and my view would be Francois Legrand for the number of events he won and the amount of time he competed for. Jerry Moffat was the best climber not to be World Champion!
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-02-11 09:46:50    
I guess you can understand that if IFSC has not the results it is kind of hard for me to find them. Further more, these results would not have changed the list!
OffLine ian Dunn
  2009-02-11 10:05:29    
The job of a journalist is to research the story properly, just because the IFSC web site doesn't have the results doesn't mean they don't exist. Try FFME, write a few e-mails do some research, otherwise your article is flawed. Including youth events is also meaningless as there are 3 categories, rather than one for seniors and over 16 years can compete in either. It may not change the end result but at least if the job is done professionally then you can't be accussed of poor / no research, after all we can all go to the IFSC website and look at the results you have used.
OffLine Stanley Yeo
  2009-02-11 10:35:55    
Jens, I guess it will be more appropriate if you state that your ranking was based on 1991 onwards. Just state that you can't find the results for 1989-90 and ask if anyone could provide you with the necessary results. I believe people will be more than willing to help.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-02-11 10:40:50    
@ Stanley: It is already stated that the list are based on results 1991 - 2008.
Further more, I have already said, "If you have any sources where we can find the comlete WC results before 1991, please inform me."
OffLine Graeme Alderson
  2009-02-11 10:44:05    
Even if Jens states that the ranking is only from 1991 it only shows how poorly he has done his research because seems to have forgotten about the likes of Robyn Erbesfield and Susi Good. Both of these competed after 1991 but where are they on the list? Robyn should be something like 7th based on 1991 onwards -  she did won numerous World Cup titles and 1 World Championships. Susi would be something like 11th having won 2 World Championships and a few World Cups
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-02-11 11:05:03    
@ Graeme: Thanks! The good thing with the internet is that you can update list like this.
The results of Robyn and Susi are amazing since they competed just a couple of years. I was thinking about writing an article of some of the old relatively unknown heroes. Could you help me?
OffLine HaeMeS
  2009-02-11 11:59:50    
Susi Good is from Switserland, Robyn from the States and Martina is from Slovenia.
OffLine Stanley Yeo
  2009-02-11 12:19:53    
"If you have any sources where we can find the comlete WC results before 1991, please inform me." You only said that in reply to Graeme's post. I was refering to having it on your initial post. I missed out on the "1991-2008" after all the ranking and statistics in your initial post. Anyway, I think it will really be cool if you can interview some of these legends to see how they are doing now.
OffLine Herman C.
  2009-02-11 12:22:39    
Muriel rules! That's for shure.
 I think, with climbing becomming more and more professionel, it will become almost impossible for any competition climber to dominate the world cup as long as some have done in the past...
OffLine ian Dunn
  2009-02-11 17:43:27    
To get the results try: FFME; & other Federations, Ivor Delafield (He was president of competitions commission of UIAA) Marco Scolaris: Climbing Magazine USA, Climb UK; Desnival, other climbing magazines. Competitors like Lynn Hill, Robyn Erbesfield, Jibe, Francoise Legrand, Send out some e-mails start the research then we can have a true history of World Cup Leading. Also how are you ranking as each year there are about 4-8 rounds, then an overall champion. Also there have been World Championships as well for most years. Do rounds count as much as a World Championship? I am sure someone has records of all these competitions, lets get a proper list and true history, from the start. Before 1989 there were World Championships held at Arco and Bardonecchia in 1985, Vaulx en Velin in 86, Arco and Bardonecchia also in 86 Arco 87 becomes Rockmaster Snowbird 88 First ever Serre Chevalier masters in 90. X Games in 95 Ian Vickers and Robyn Erbesfield won. 89 competitions were Leeds UK, La Riba Spain, Bardonecchia Italy, Snowbird USA, Vrasta Bulgaria, Yalta Russia and Lyon France Nanette Raybaud and Simon Nadin overall World Cup Winners. This info took me 20 minutes to get, so get too it Jens and fill in the blanks. Ian
OffLine Graeme Alderson
  2009-02-11 20:22:25    
Ian Anything pre-1989 was not official World Champs. Quite a few of the early comps were true Masters ie invite only like Arco still is so should not be included in any ranking like this. Anyway I might have a solution to finding the 1989 and 1990 results. I had a box full of old paper results when I was at the BMC, obviously I never got around to typing them up. Rang Rob today and he found a box with old results, hopefully it contains what we are looking for. I will pick them up sometime and start the boring process of typing them up and hopefully we can get them ratified by the IFSC as 'official' Cheers Graeme Ps Digital Rock might have some stuff, they were the scoring team at Leeds 89 and I suspect a few others in those early years.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-02-11 21:23:26    
@ Ian & Graeme: Thanks...but it is not the responsibility of 8a to fix it. Of course, this something IFSC have to deal with.
@ Ian: You are welcome to make up your own list based on your own regulations if you did not like mine. 
OffLine Jurriaan Zwier
  2009-02-11 21:30:27    
Using your method i come to 1200 points for dutch pride Jorg Verhoeven and Jens if you like to know something about the 'old' stars you should read the 'rock stars' book by Heinz Zak. Ah from this book, i found that Yuji won WC nurnberg '89, Godoffe won world cup vienna 1990, Raboutou won Lyon '90, Moffatt won: Leeds '89, la riba '89 and Madonna '89. Simon Nadin won Bardonecchia '89, Lyon '89, la riba '89(like moffatt?) and '90 and Berkeley '90. Erbesfield won Leeds '89, Hill won Lyon '89,'90, Barcelona 90
OffLine Graeme Alderson
  2009-02-11 22:14:38    
Jens - I don't think either me or Ian is suggesting it is your responsibility 'to fix it' - although you did ask people to send you info, presumably so you could 'fix it' :-)  I think that me and Ian (and other people in this thread and numerous other threads) is that if you have journalistic pretensions then you do have a responsibility to do your research a bit more thoroughly. And I am not talking about 1989 or 1990 I am talking about not actually checking the results from 1991 onwards. My guess is that you thought of a list of names and then went to their IFSC profiles to get their results instead of going to the rankings/results to find out which names you should have been cross referencing. Hence you missed Robyn, Susi and Small Frank (Francois Petite) in your initial list. This was bad journalism and is your responsibility.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-02-11 23:46:47    
I do not have as high journalistic pretensions as you may wish. I agree that some might call this bad journalism.
I can choose to increase my journalistic level and maybe publish 5 news a week or keep doing what I am right now, publishing 20 news. I wonder what you and others would like me to do?
OffLine Gudmund Grønhaug
  2009-02-12 08:57:59    
It´s obvious that the correct thing would be to produce correct innfo the first time!
The quality on the news page gives the status on the site. When the news is close to gossip and whatever seems to be popping up in your mind, nobody gives a damn about the rest either (grade debates and ranking lists).
And the time spent on commenting your misschecking the news in the first place could very well be spent on pre checking the so called news!
OnLine Sune Hermit
  2009-02-12 11:52:32    
Jens wrote: "I can choose to increase my journalistic level and maybe publish 5 news a week or keep doing what I am right now, publishing 20 news." For my part I would prefer the main page to have 5 well-researched, thorough stories with high journalistic standards a week than 20 or more ideas/suggestions/feelings/speculations. I think in the long run it will make the site much more attractive. As pointed out by others, you can always keep personal ideas or speculations in a blog or in the open forum. Best regards Sune Hermit
OffLine ian Dunn
  2009-02-12 14:21:57    
I totally agree with Sune, what is the point of 20 badly researched inaccurate news items. 5 good well researched pieces (one a day) would be so much more use. If you want 8a to be a well respected web site then it will only be accepted as such if the news items are accurate and well researched. EG Mountain magazine was the best climbing magazine in the world because Ken Wilson the editor made sure he researched his articles throughly and the magazine had worldwide respect because of that. You are better to be 24 hours late with and accurate well researched piece than first with a load of rubbish. Anyway lets get a list of all the winners of all the world cups from 1989 to date. You could have top three but that would be more work. Cheers Ian
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-02-12 15:16:11    
@ Sune & Ian: I agree that it would be better to have 5 well-researched than 20 badly researched.
This is however not the case so why should we discuss this. I guess most find most of the 20 news articles interesting and correct.
The easiest way for me is to focus mainly on reporting high-numbers but I want to give the visitors more. Based on the statistics, which shows a steady increase. We have to do something right. I guess, many visitors like to read the discussion based on my initial analysis/debate article. I guess this is like in any newspaper or TV-channel. The visitors wants a mix of everything.
OffLine Justin Alarcon
  2009-02-15 05:25:53    
Is it possible the popularity of this site is based primarily on the usefulness of ticklist and climb tracking tools and secondarily on the real news. Stop speculating on the popularity of your rankings and other BS. The response to these articles are overwhelmingly negative. 
OffLine Unai
  2009-02-18 12:28:08    
First ever was Moffatt.
OffLine Chris Shulz
  2009-12-22 19:21:14    
Jens,  Once again, amazing logic.  You said you understand statistics, then why don't we test your hypothesis? For the next 3 months, write none of your little "news" articles which are really just your opinions wrapped up to look like facts.  Just stick to reports of notable ascents and try to get them correct. No lists, no world records, no polls on who the 4th best climber of the year is.  Let's see if the number of  visits goes down.  Maybe it will increase even more (a new world record!).  Wouldn't that be great?! But you won't do it.  You will quickly make an excuse why you can't, but the real reason is that you are addicted to it.  You couldn't live without the attention you generate.  You need people to respond to you even if it is negative. CS
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-12-22 20:15:22    
I do not understand what you say. There is absolutely no opinions in the news...the ranking is based on facts.
OffLine Chris Shulz
  2009-12-23 02:17:20    
I was referring to your claim that your "news" is why 8a.nu is growing in popularity.  This is an opinion, not a fact.  It is a hypothesis that could be easily tested as I suggest.  Please just stop posting your personal theories on training and grades and everything else and see if 8a becomes more popular.  I bet you traffic will increase without it. Or, you could claim to not even understand my post (your english sucks, you are ADD and dyslexic, etc.)  Yeah, that is probably easier. CS
OffLine Sakari McGregor
  2009-12-23 12:18:01    
5 pieces of good news would be so much better then 20 of the so called news. Jens you say that you write 20 pieces of news a week. News flash this aint news: 1. Overview pictures wanted 2. 1.3 million ascents in the 8a database 3. The mental traffic light system  ETC.......... I remember that you've claimed the amount of news before (considering that 8a produces so much more news then ukclimbing). But you have to understand that these can't be considered as news, there more like the comic strips you find in a newspaper. Also you always say that people want more "bad news" then "good news". There are numerous people who always complain about the quality on this website. And as a Christmas gift to all of us, please get rid of the frames. (yeah I know you will answer this by saying that 8a cant afford a full-time webmaster) Jesus if I had that many adds on my blog I could hire some random dude to write the bullocks I write.) Peace and I hope everybody enjoys the celebration of the biggest fantasy character who apparently could walk on water)
OffLine gerardo workel
  2009-12-24 08:28:29    
i do absolutely prefer 20 news in a week it doesnt matter if it has 1 or 2 errors the news is there and you got somehow an idea of it other wise i wouldnt know about it so keep it up :)
OffLine gerardo workel
  2009-12-24 08:28:31    
i do absolutely prefer 20 news in a week it doesnt matter if it has 1 or 2 errors the news is there and you got somehow an idea of it other wise i wouldnt know about it so keep it up :)