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Forum: GLOBAL / News / Nalle's 8C gets 8B+ by Jan Hojer again Login in to contribute
Nalle's 8C gets 8B+ by Jan Hojer again
OffLine 8a.nu
  2012-11-23 00:00:00    
Jan Hojer has once again made a quick repeat of a Nalle Hukkataival 8C in Val Bavona, Off The Wgon giving it a personal grade of 8B+. "I didn't even dare dreaming of that boulder when I saw dosage for the first time. The FA of that classic is the well deserved reward for all the work, Nalle invested into brushing nearly everything in this valley.

Took me about 20 tries over two sessions. Anybody who tried "Off the Wagon" knows how irrelevant the grade is for such a cool line... It's a hard boulder and even harder for short People!"

It should be mentioned that it is very important to respect the access issues and park outside the village and do not walk in big groups etc.
OffLine bteswa ayre
  2012-11-23 23:52:01    
congrats to Jan. But Jens it doesn't deserve so much hype for the grade.he's much taller, i didn't know that before... good thing is if he continue like that, we're gonna see something new in the climbing scene
OffLine Peter Klaun
  2012-11-24 00:50:46    
you spelled germani wrong though. it's g-ö-b-e-l-m-a-n-n.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2012-11-24 07:56:28    
The hype is not the grade but instead the "personal grade". The reason why the boulder grade inflation was created was because climbers in general did not give personal grades instead they mainly just took the FA grade and "confirmed". 8a reported about this problem saying that the new "inflated" grades were most probably not true. We did this in order to have more credibility in our news. Do you as one example remember the 8C+' by Zangerl which later was "confirmed" by guys who had never before done 8B+ etc. At that time I said that this problems probably are just 8B+ and of course I was criticised for this but now they are both considered as 8B... and even soft. It is not wrong or strange that Nalle suggested 8C as it took him long time...but it is very good Jan shared his opinion so we do not start grade inflation again.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2012-11-24 08:03:28    
@Jens: The previous thread about this topic was a bit different. It was stated, that Jan Hojer needed two sessions within only one hour to repeat "Off the Wagon". Is that wright? Is there any video footage existing of Nalle or Jan doing "Off the Wagon"?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2012-11-24 08:55:33    
Yes, the first news was coorect but with Jan's comment I choose to update it. I think there is footage of the send.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2012-11-24 09:04:44    
@Marco: Jan is indeed 13cm taller than Nalle, maybe that's the reason why the boulder seemed easier for him.
OffLine Daniel Bähring
  2012-11-24 09:26:49    
Nalle: 173cm, Jan: 186cm - quite a difference!
"So how do you grade something like this? Since I climbed my first 8B+, Dreamtime, almost 8 years ago I’ve reached a level of climbing 8B+ quickly and consistently. Although I’ve tried the Wagon project mostly one day here and there on different trips and often in less than ideal conditions, it still took me three sessions this trip alone. I can’t think of another 8B+ that would have given me that much resistance recently. That is why I find it hard to see it as your typical 8B+. As always, it will suit some people better than others. Although it’s my style, I’m extremely spanned out sticking the first dyno which makes the next campus move really hard. I must have fallen there at least eight times on the link, after sticking the first dyno. So based on my experience on the problem, I’m proposing 8C for it." - Nalle
Jens should give credit to Nalle because he is giving a true personal grade. This is not about inflation, this is about personal differences. There is no such thing as "The Grade". What feels like 8C to Nalle might feel like 8B+ to Jan but that doesn't mean that Jan is right and Nalle is wrong. 

Grading is the attempt to quantify subjective experience. Because there are so many subjective factors, you are bound to get different opinions. I think 8a.nu should register the personal grades from all climbers and calculate the mean (or rather mode because that's more practical) and show this as the "default grade" in the database. And when someone clicks on this "default grade" it would be cool to get a pop up or something that shows a graph with the distribution of the personal grades. In this way, you would account for the relative and subjective nature of a grade and not handle it as this absolute and concrete thing. With more and more ascents, you would get a more and more accurate picture of reality.
OffLine V
  2012-11-24 09:42:12    
daniel, as simple and obvious as it is, this is a great idea! it's a bit similar to the system 27crags uses but better!  jens please stop all the silly discussions on this site and do it exactly as daniel says! to all 8a.nu members: post something (can be an empty post) in this thread to show jens that you think daniels idea is cool! maybe if we get enough posts we could persuade even him! :-)
OffLine Jon Smith
  2012-11-24 09:51:28    
Yes, Daniel's idea is the way it should be done. And I think the idea of the FA giving an objective grade instead of a personal grade is the most retarded idea I've ever heard. Always use personal grades, even for FAs like Nalle did with Off The Wagon!
OffLine V
  2012-11-24 10:02:33    
this really could be a turning point in the history of this site: the so-called "off the silly-discussions-wagon" incident! everyone who likes to read about inspiring ascents but is sick of the silliness on this site, don't be lazy and post something! let's convince Jens! OFF THE WAGON!
OffLine J.Gunn
  2012-11-24 10:18:28    
the idea is pretty cool, for an in-vitriol scenario (such as a website with charts and numbers etc!). all for it. it should def. be possible given it's all in some sort of database yeah?
OffLine User Deactivated
  2012-11-24 11:01:00    
A great idea! That sounds really good! And it's maybe the best way to express the subjectiveness of grading routes (which is of course inherent to the system!) and to get an idea of the advantages of the international Climbing-community in the 21st century of global digital communication!
OffLine Alex G
  2012-11-24 11:46:02    
bleau.info has been doing it this way for years.

jens it's what you don't quite get, your two posts about Nalles 8C getting downgraded make Nalle look bad. Just read the headlines! You focus on the downgrade rather than on the repeat of an impressive problem. I'd be pissed if I were him. I fear it may lead to people not grading their stuff at all like Sharma did back in the day.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2012-11-24 13:22:39    
So Jens, my friend: Why can't 8a.nu introduce this system also?
OffLine Christoph Reichert
  2012-11-24 13:35:29    
Convinced. Do it, please! Would be the best way, for any site trying to share information on problems/ routes and grades (e.g. boulderrausch,..)
OffLine Chris_Lockyer
  2012-11-24 15:54:59    
Agreed, its about time 8a.number had an update and I think this is an excellent idea.
OffLine Majkel
  2012-11-24 16:08:51    
I agree and furthermore start to think about the reason that made Nalle leave the 8a.nu system after all these years. Maybe it's the reason for such 'objective' headlines towards Nalle as he is no longer an 8a.member.However when regarding AO who's a 8a member but not registered on 27crags all news reflect true bravery and humbleness. Just something to think about, I have nothing towards Adam.
OffLine Miha
  2012-11-24 16:35:57    
I'm also for the revolution. Please make a positive construcitve change or be forever known as a type of man most of climbers see you these days...
OffLine Rainer Held
  2012-11-24 16:48:53    
I totally agree with Daniel - it is about time to make use of the possibilities of the internet to make grading more reliable and more transparent. And I have three more suggestions for calculating the grade:  1.) There should be such a thing as a "preliminary grade" i.e. a grade that is based only on a small number of repeats. As soon as there are more repeats of a route (maybe about 10), the "preliminary" could be removed. To get rid of the most extreme gradings (there are always people who don't care) one could drop e.g the 20% most extreme grades at a number of 9 repeats, 10% at a number of 99 repeats, etc.   2.) It would be nice to have a graph that shows the development of the mean grade as a function of time. 3.) In my opinion, if you climb at the very limit of your capabilities, you are able to differentiate between very small differences in difficulty. Therefore, I am all for the possibility to give slash grades in this system. This would also make the output of the calculation more accurate (smaller rounding error).  
OffLine Joshi Schulz
  2012-11-24 16:56:51    
good idea.

It should be obvious, if the given grade is "personal" or "official (as in the guidebook)".
OffLine Merlijn Meens
  2012-11-24 17:18:01    
Excellent idea...Please implement it ASAP.
OffLine Emmanuel
  2012-11-24 17:30:29    
agreed! so far a boulder is shown in the database with all the different grades ever given having equal weight. For example (random), The Rhino, at Roklands appears in the database: "The Rhino, 7A+,7B,7B+" Even though 109 people have it at 7B+, and 5 at 7B and only one at 7A+. so the single '7A+' opinion has as much weight than the 109 '7B+' one... that doesn't make any sense, showing an histogram with the number of each opinions at each grades would show right away that the concensus grade is (by very far) 7B+ this has been working very well at bleau.info for over a decade
OffLine simpson
  2012-11-24 17:31:52    
Just do it!
OffLine sidepull
  2012-11-24 18:05:34    
First, the notion that Nalle's grade was any less "personal" than Jans' grade is ridiculous. Second, the idea of providing a distribution of grades has been suggested for years. It would be nice if Jens finally relented and did something that made real sense. Third, the idea that inflation is any more of a problem than "deflation" is getting more and more ridiculous. Look how much press Jens gives Adam and Jans when they downgrade a route! It's not so much that these people are heroes. It has more to do with the fact that a first ascentionist will almost always over-rate a route because the psychological battle of figuring out whether something is possible makes things so much more difficult than climbing an established line. In sum, Jens' overly dramatic reaction to Jans' fine accomplishment just shows how many things are wrong with this site and the fact that smart suggestions in this thread will be ignored just compounds these issues. ~y
OffLine User Deactivated
  2012-11-24 18:26:27    
Finally, maybe the overwhelming agreement to this idea puts some pressure on Jens to implement the system mentioned above. I hope it will...
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2012-11-24 18:45:10    
Thanks for all the average opinions which have been suggested for years. Here is the reasons why we have not implemented them. 1. Until now very few climbers suggest personal grades. My estimation is that at least 80 % just follow the guide book. The easiest way to understand this figure is to check the stats from one of the down graded routes on Kalymnos. If a route was given 7b...almost all record it as 7b. If it is later dwon graded to 7a+... almost all record it as 7a+. 2. If we should use the average grade of such a route, there is so many 7b recording that it takes several years until the 8a scorecard grade reaches 7a+/7b and it will be forever until it is 7a+. 3. Let us say a hold get bigger/smaller or polished making it three grades harder. Any average grade would be silly. 4. If nobody can repeat an 8B boulder even if many of the best top climbers try it hard...it should be upgraded. 5. I do not think grades are so important or accurate so we should calculate averages. 6. Grades are personal and often depending on height. One boulder can be 7A for a tall guy but just 6C for a short guy and vice versa. In this case I think the topo should report it as 6C (7A). Of course I do not blame Nalle but if a boulder in length dependent the FA should try to include this in the FA grade if you are short or tall. The hardest and most unfriendly down grading I have ever seen was how Nalle reported his two grades lower on a Paul Robinson problem in SA. Just check Nalle's blog. In this case, Jan was a role model. I would also say that I have asked several top climbers and they have all said that calculating average grades are the wrong way to go. However, if a big majority of the 8a members really think so we might develop such feature, making it possible to hide, when we have time.
OffLine brave and humble
  2012-11-24 18:48:48    
Yes! we can! Thats the way!
OffLine V
  2012-11-24 19:01:07    
Jens, i knew you would have some excuses, especially the "grades are not important enough" was to be expected... maybe you could make a poll? if the community decides that it is time for change, will you accept it? also a new layout would be nice.. and i think the headline "Nalles 8c gets 8b+" is a new lowpoint even by your standard.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2012-11-24 19:25:21    
@Jens: I'm really sad to read this answer from you! @V: I fully agree: Let's make a poll about this topic, maybe that convinces Jens more, but if you see his recent answer I think he'll stick to the old system like chewing gum
OffLine simpson
  2012-11-24 19:25:58    
Pro average calculation!
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2012-11-24 19:38:50    
First you have to come up with a solution for the first three problems that i described :)
OffLine simpson
  2012-11-24 19:50:13    
Just do it! "1. Until now very few climbers suggest personal grades. My estimation is
that at least 80 % just follow the guide book. The easiest way to
understand this figure is to check the stats from one of the down graded
routes on Kalymnos. If a route was given 7b...almost all record it as
7b. If it is later dwon graded to 7a+... almost all record it as 7a+." -> No disadvantage with average calculation - just wait and see what happens! I'd expect more people would come up with personal grading once the feature is enabled. Just do it! "2. If we should use the average grade of such a route, there is so many 7b
recording that it takes several years until the 8a scorecard grade
reaches 7a+/7b and it will be forever until it is 7a+." -> I, you, and we have plenty of time. No disadvantage with average calculation - just wait and see what happens! Just do it! "3. Let us say a hold get bigger/smaller or polished making it three grades harder. Any average grade would be silly." -> With a plot "average grade vs time" like Rainer Held proposed, you will see the physical change of the route in a drift of the average. Just do it! Just do it!
OffLine Jørgen Bryn Henriksen
  2012-11-24 19:59:36    
If you let the average of the sends from the past couple of years or so decide the grade, it vil maybe solve your first three problems.

Off course this will only work for routes/boulders that have frequent sends. For less frequented routes/boulders the average of the last five or so sends could work.
OffLine Enzo Scossa-Romano
  2012-11-24 20:24:46    
A good idea, since grading is non deterministic a statistical approach is more suited. And of course this is the way that every scientist would choose for such a ranking. I don't think that the opinion of top climber is the most important, first because often they are  not familiar with statistic, second because this idea is applicable not only on  8B+/ 8C but on the whole  grading scala where all climber  can contribute. For the 2nd point you could use a weighting to get  a more appropriate variance(and average) in less time. and as all the people in this forum says: Just do it!
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2012-11-24 20:26:49    
If we base the grade on calculations, the reported grades will be more inflated compared to what they already are today. Many of the down gradings on Kalymnos were based on my suggestions as well as the data base. If Aris would have based them on average as you say, a maximum 10 % of all the down gradings would have been enforced. Thus it is way better to do this manually and not use a calculation. If we based the boulder grades in Switzerland on average, half of them would not have been enforced. In the cases of Zangerl's 8C+ which are now considered as soft 8B+...they would still have been 8C with average calculations. Everyone knows that this is wrong...why should we create a system where it takes longer time to correct wrong grades?
OffLine simpson
  2012-11-24 20:36:50    
Just do it and see what happens! Listen to the users! Listen to the majority! Power to the people! ;-)))
OffLine Enzo Scossa-Romano
  2012-11-24 20:54:22    
yes, listen to the majority, Jens, what you say is in part correct, in  the grade "measurement" we  often have a systematic error (inflation). This is a problem but this is not a  reason to avoid statistics. You only have to correct the grades in a way to eliminate this error. Two number ( a variance plus a mean(if necessary corrected)) are a much better indicator than a single  (personal) number.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2012-11-24 20:56:18    
@simpson: Well done, well written: Let's try to make 8a.nu to a real democratic site..:-)
OffLine V
  2012-11-24 21:34:13    
jens, everyone thinks this is a good idea, except you. but you are more important than the community, obviously. Power to the people!
OffLine jarvoramas
  2012-11-24 22:43:44    
I also think it's a great idea .

Please Jens .
OffLine crag D
  2012-11-24 23:15:19    

As someone already mentioned, one useful tool is to just truncate the extreme ends(e.g. top/bottom 10%). And besides: I don't get, why you don't just add an "average_grade" feature, additional to the current system.  There is no disadvantage(despite the time to implent it- but it shouldnt be really hard), and the time will tell, which system is more "appropriate"...
OffLine El Scorpion
  2012-11-25 01:55:12    
Jens- the solutions to your three "problems" have been given- use either a "time" or a "number of ascents" weighted average that removes the older ascents from the weighted average once you hit a certain number of ascents. For example once a problem has 20 ascents ( a decent number to start to run stats on) start removing the older grades from the average and replace with new ascents. The climbing community has supported you and your site by registering ascents; start paying them back by actually using your database instead of just lazily throwing out  inflammatory threads every week or so... DO WORK SON! The climbers have spoken! Also 8a.nu users, just to keep Jens focused on the task at hand, from now on anytime Jens starts a new thread - no matter how annoying the thread is don't bite- just keep replying to him to "Grade Average"!
OffLine Odin
  2012-11-25 03:08:16    
Hey Jens, if you like the grade by height to grade graph or weight to grade graph idea and wanted to go through with it, but the workload/effort seems a bit too much I'd love to help you implement the changes.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2012-11-25 03:35:23    
Thanks again for your thoughts. as I have said above we would implement it if the majority likes it especially if somebody like Odin can do the job. The problem is of course that when i have asked around, almost nobody of the climbers seem to think it is a good idea. I would also like to know how you guys think it should be done practically. Have would you present the average grade the climb that has both 7b+ and 7c opinions as well as 8b and 8b+ opinions? In many crags there exist extensions that have been registered with the same name in the database. Before all problems like this is solved it does not be so interested to create an average grade- Anybody who thinks grades are important can already today just click on the route name and all ascents are shown. Is this not enough.
OffLine Andrew Haydawg
  2012-11-25 04:06:06    
Jens, take a look at bleau.info again. Here, here is a random boulder problem. http://bleau.info/zinnen/9681.html There are bar graphs representing the suggested grades. If there is a climb that has a 7b and an 8b version, it will be very obvious, there will be a big bar at 7b and a big bar at 8b. People will know it has to be cleaned up at some point, and that the average doesn't make sense for that particular problem/route. This problem -does not- have to be solved before you implement the changes. It will be a minority case.
OffLine V
  2012-11-25 07:36:42    
Jens, apparently none of those climbers that you asked in the past is willing to come to your aid. i mean, surely you are talking about 8a.nu members who are perfectly able to speak for themselves here? if you make a poll, they can vote against the new system! it works on other sites, everybody except you wants it, yet you still find pitifull excuses...
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2012-11-25 08:35:09    
I have not seen any average grading in any other website. Could you or anyone please explain how this would work? To make a graph is something totally different from calculate an average grade which was what was suggested from the beginning. I am not against doing a graph even if I think our system is better already.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2012-11-25 09:36:03    
http://27crags.com shows a grade opinions graph. In addition it automatically updates the grade according to an algorithm. Here a good example of both features: http://27crags.com/crags/munkkiniemi/routes/prism. http://bleau.info shows a grade opinions graph and most probably automatically calculates the grade for the problem using an algorithm. See: http://bleau.info/petit/1438.html. http://sendage.com does not show a grade opinions graph but shows personal grades for each ascent and probably automatically adjusts the grade shown next to the problem name. I am not so familiar with this web site so I really cannot comment on how it works. Example problem: http://sendage.com/climb/iron-man-traverse-bishop. http://www.ukclimbing.com/ also has a system to log ascents, but I have never used it and its not the core idea of the web site anyway.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2012-11-25 09:50:26    
Give your vote at http://poll.pollcode.com/5yzx6z
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2012-11-25 10:12:29    
I think your example is a perfect describing why it does not work. The automatic grade started from 7A and are now 6C although it clearly says in the headline that it is just 6B. I have checked many more examples and it seems that actually the algorith does not work so good which is just naturally. We will never change the recorded grade in the scorecard beacuse this is something personal and we do not interfere here. However, as the interest of an average grade has been so great. I will discuss this with the webmaster and put it high up on the prio list for how we show the grades.   
OffLine V
  2012-11-25 10:14:58    
the eternal struggle between the climbing community and one stubborn, unrelenting swede is about to reach it's climax..
OffLine themethod
  2012-11-25 10:20:41    
Great idea Daniel.
OffLine Romanski
  2012-11-25 12:18:10    
Just do it!!! 1. Draw a graph. 2. Calculate average and standard error for the most recent 20 ascents if there are more than 20, otherwise use all ascents. 3. Remove all gradings from the calculation that are more than 2 standard errors above or below the average grade. 4. Recalculate the average grade. Most problems mentioned above will be resolved automatically. Especially if you draw a timeline one could easily view when a route/problem changes. Then you just have to wait for another 20 ascents and your average grade is more correct than you could ever do manually. Do it!
OffLine User Deactivated
  2012-11-25 12:37:15    
@leggins only: Great tips! @Jens: As you can see, the grade shown next to a route/problem's name can be calculated in other ways than just calculating the average from all ascents. It's all about how the algorithm will be implemented and the aforementioned tips will give you a great starting point. Regarding the poll I created... So far, there is already 50 votes given and the results strongly support the community's voice.
OffLine brave and humble
  2012-11-25 14:05:01    
http://poll.pollcode.com/5yzx6z go for it
OffLine Sampsa Aronen
  2012-11-25 17:00:53    
Don't bother voting and waiting forever for the update, just start using 27crags and all your worries will be over! It has alot of features that problably will never be implemented here! 27crags.com
OffLine Gibbon
  2012-11-25 17:40:23    
 27CRAGS really could do better with the newsfeed though... its rather slow compared to other sites. Otherwise the whole system is pretty much the best there is!
OffLine Sakari McGregor
  2012-11-25 18:34:25    
@Gibbon Hey, you can blame the 27Crags Newsfeed mostly on me. I admit I have been seriously inactive in the past six months. I could write a bunch of excuses like how I moved countries, new job, new house etc... the list goes on forever, but mainly it's because I have been climbing more then spending time on the Internet. But cheers for the compliment on the site. Best regards, Sakari McGregor [27Crags]
OffLine John Meget
  2012-11-26 06:50:57    
What do you do if a boulder has two ascents, and they differ by one? e.g. one climber grades it 8C and the other 8B+. Slash grade?

Also, to work well, the idea really requires everyone to give their own personal grade. Does 8a's existing database do that?
OffLine Joakim Thommesen
  2012-11-26 09:34:40    
It's obvious why Jens is not enthusiastic about this statistical way of grading:His database will not allow it. Not until he starts organizing the routes like bleau.info does. It will require all the routes to be pre-registered under ONE NAME (not like today, where one route may have 10 misspelled versions living in the database. Not possible to perform statistics on routes like this.) I think 8a is great for entertainment and news updates, but the database is an anachronism. Evolve or get extinct.
OffLine Idar Ose
  2012-11-26 10:09:50    
It should be possible to convert the DB to a normalized relational DB, but it will take time due to the amount of accents registered.  I guess a script could do 95% (pure guess) in less than a couple of minutes.  Then a lot of cleanup would be needed.  But changing the DB would require a more or less complete rewrite of the core of the site. And that could be quite a task. 
OffLine Idar Ose
  2012-11-26 12:52:32    
nahh.. not trying to convince just saying that it is possible but timeconsuming.. ;) 
OffLine Derek Bredl
  2012-11-26 20:22:57    
Agree with Moller ... trying to change Jen's mind will be harder to do than repeating the boulder problem that sparked this debate. Anyone with any knowledge of statistics and climbing full well knows that the best way to handle "grading" is exactly has been suggested in this thread. Of course it's not perfect, but then NO system is (no, not even your current system Jens). Remember, we are talking about the grading of subjective feelings, as someone already suggested, there is no such thing as "THE GRADE" for any climb. It will ALWAYS be a range (average with standard distribution). Some climbs simply have a wider range than others. To re-itereate for you Jens. The 3 problems you outlined are simply solved either by removing ascents based upon number or age ... simply keeping the most recent ascents will ensure that as time goes by grades become more and more "tight". Ultimaltey climbs with less ascents will ALWAYS be more difficult to grade "correctly", it's the nature of the beast, so do not use them as examples of why it won't work. Come on Jens! Less yapping more tapping! The people have most certainly spoken!
OffLine Derek Bredl
  2012-11-26 20:35:14    
@John What do you do if a boulder has two ascents, and they differ by one? e.g. one climber grades it 8C and the other 8B+. Slash grade? To me, and I am sure most people here, that makes perfcect sense ... I actually don't understand why it doesn't for you John? As the current example illustates ... I think the Wagon problem is in the range of 8B+/8C ... possibly dependant upon height/reach (among other things). Ultimately until it receives a lot more ascents I don't think you can say with ANY level of accuracy that it is either 8C or 8B+ ... @John Also, to work well, the idea really requires everyone to give their own personal grade. Does 8a's existing database do that? @Jens Until now very few climbers suggest personal grades. My estimation is that at least 80 % just follow the guide book. These two points share the same issue ... yes 8a's database allows you to give any climb any grade. Ultimately I am not surprised if 80% of people simply follow the guide, for the majority of climbs, I believe that for the majority of people the guide probably gives them the correct ball park figure. Case in point ... I am a short male climber (162/163 cm), certainly not of average height (for climbers or people in general), as such it is likely to expect more climbs to feel different (harder or easier) to me as compared to average heighted people ... the simple fact is though, that probably 80% of the time, the guide book grade is actually an appropriate grade for me ... maybe things tend to feel half a grade harder, but most times this still falls within grade band of the suggested guide book grade. And trust me, I know grades are ultimately important to a certain degree in climbing ...
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2012-11-26 21:06:35    
I have like 20 posts above written that I will take to the webmaster and put it high up in the prio list = I have listened to what you guys have been saying.  It is thus very hard to understand that some guys just continue to say the same thing. I repeat, we will make some kind of presentation of the personal grades in the data base, even if 8a do not think grades are so important. 
OffLine Christopher Sykes
  2012-11-26 21:33:56    
Agree with Daniels comment although I also see the issues faced by Jens to deliver the expectations of the forum. A clear concise database grading system must be formulated that everybody is happy with. This must then be designed and implemented onto the site. Either to existing or a complete new build for the site. These things take time and investment to achieve and if the system is still undefined how can the design begin. Change to the current database would greatly benefit 8a.nu but don't expect it to happen overnight.
OffLine M
  2012-11-27 00:14:29    
Totally agree with what Daniels Said! With this system we could eliminate a lot of controversies, and people is going to give more personal Grades without pression! :D
OffLine Peter Klaun
  2012-11-27 00:25:36    
# 69!
OffLine User Deactivated
  2012-11-27 07:43:12    
@leggins only: Sounds great, it's similar to the approach I would use as a scientist trying to quantify something, it accounts for variation between climbers, and shouldn't be too difficult for the webmaster to script. I would also suggest adding a note to the scorecard entry system that encouraging people to give a personal grade rather than the guidebook grade.
OffLine Barti Albert Wuersch
  2012-11-29 21:53:18    
Very cool idea. What goes along: Get rid of the soft/hard comment. It makes no sense when you record personal grades. Instead add more information about the style of the climb to choose from. steepness, what kind of holds, length of the route or number of moves in a boulder, etc. With this information you can generate cool lists for your next trip
OffLine User Deactivated
  2012-11-29 22:40:27    
 I don't like the double standard, some of the comments bring to the table. People seem to forget that in most cases tall people have a disadvantage because they don't usually weight 58 kg. Why don't we argue that people should give personal grades according to their weight? Because its complete bs. But whenever a tall guy (Jan, 186 cm) pulls some really hard moves (despite 10-20 extra kilos) it's only because of his height. Give this guy some credit for sending hard problems with ease.
OffLine mr. monkey
  2012-11-29 23:48:05    
Maaaaan, I`m actually glad i fucket up my body the last 2 seasons, and have taken a brake from climbing..   Got to focused on grades and progressing. And I think this site was some of the reason..heh.. I know this is not your intension, but still..  EVERYTHING on this site is about grades this and grades that and after you get sucked in..  next year i`m comming come back with a freach look... Lens, you have been saying this ¨grades are not important¨ for years and years (and prob. for years before the years), but still... 70% of all the treads on you site is about grades!!! (the ones that you make anyway)  And you prob. have a good reason for this..  That somehow always talking about grades makes them less important..heh.. if you dont think grades are important you would post this story of the send, and not mention what Nalle graded it! if someone wants to do the prob. they will find this out anyway..And if the community thinks it important somebody else can bring it up.. Like why do you need to point this stuff out on every climb?   Post the problems, if the climber insist on talking about the downgrade etc..  and you not ASKING about it.. okGo for stories, depth intervjues, training articles, travels and destinations etc etc etc etc... You guys really need to stop having this same discussion.. it`s been going on for years. And yeah..  i know it`s hard..  but take a brake and come back..  you`ll see how stupid this shit really is:)  Like yes, grades are cool.. but..  we dont need to talk about it 247..Everything that can be said about it already has.