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Forum: GLOBAL / News / 9a FA again by Joe Kinder (38) Login in to contribute
9a FA again by Joe Kinder (38)
OffLine 8a.nu
  2018-10-30 00:00:00    
Joe Kinder has done the FA of Diarrhea Mouth 9a in Rifle. His winter plan is working and to do an extension of his Bone Tomahawk 9a+ which could be his first 9b. (c) Steve Rokks

"Done deal. Bolted May 2017, tried on 4 separate mini-trips since May 2018 when my career imploded. Super aggressive crux in a horizontal roof. I think I calculated 30 days. Life is different now, but I'm still going hard so fuck it all. Climbing is my love and passion and it's what I will always remember no matter what. All I need is the belief and support from the ones who love me."
Click to Enlarge Picture
OffLine felipe
  2018-10-30 21:11:57    
Joe is a real one...not many out there! congrats buddy
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2018-10-30 22:23:06    
"and (financial) support from the ones who love me"?
OffLine Travel Alternative
  2018-10-30 23:17:02    
no one to blame but yourself Joey.
OffLine Scott K
  2018-10-31 04:12:05    
No one to blame but himself for bolting and establishing a new FA that many people will enjoy in the future?
OffLine rai
  2018-10-31 07:40:44    
Looking at the "interesting" name of the route it seems that that the lesson of why and how he's been sacked by his sponsors was not really learned... In Italy we say "the wolf losses his hair but not being vicious" (nothing against the wolves anyways)... In a situation like this a wiser man would have used more fair play and at least irony and choosen a more appropriated not to say opportunistic name like "maturity"... Any other suggestions...?
OnLine Geo Bush
  2018-10-31 08:21:25    
A pity there's not more new rock to develop in the US, and he can't go out and redeem himself with some great new destination crag...be interesting to see if the community ends up letting him back in, it was certainly horrible timing to start attacking a female climber during/after a historic year for female climbers
OffLine paolocar88
  2018-10-31 11:16:52    
The name can be read in both ways...
Could be related to his own attitude of talking shit about other climbers, or could be related to the loads of words that people said after he was sacked by the sponsors...

He should have been more clear with this name in my opinion, also considering that he apologized. Was it a true apology or just hoping that the sponsors could stay with him?
OffLine rai
  2018-10-31 11:51:22    
@Paolocar88: makes sense also ;-) Anyways it's useless to cry upon himself if the name relates to his past behaviour. He would be wiser to reset, turn the page and project himself in something more positive...
OffLine Sebastian Peace
  2018-10-31 12:09:36    
After just reading about the whole drama I really hope he means himself with the name. I have always enjoyed watching Joe climb and hope he learns from his mistakes. Nobody is perfect and accepting/realizing your own faults is the first step. No more bully. Be good boy Joe, I know you can! Be @joekindkid ! To the ones affected / speaking out: Stay strong, the internet can be a very harsh place and I am sorry you had to go through all that. All in all I wish for everybody involved to shake hands and to grow with it. Losing your main (?) sponsors seems a bit extreme for such mischievous/childish behaviour and I don't think this was intended by Sascha / Courtney and maybe there is a way back with much love and care?
edit: His apologies for anyone interested: @joekinder & @joekinder
OffLine Joe Kinder
  2018-10-31 17:24:03    
Hey there. The name stems from a few aspects but mainly my past situation of crass talk. I’ll never defend it as it hurt people and that’s not ok. Ever. There’s lots I’ve learned from the whole incident but the one I’ll take to the grave is that speaking negatively towards anyone brings nothing good. Think about that. Thanks for the comment and the insight. I should have given more context to the name. Hugs.
OffLine Christian Mengel
  2018-10-31 18:00:32    
@JoeKinder - I guess what you explained could easily be deduced even without your explanation if someone at least made a half hearted effort at deducing...we all make mistakes. I made some. Some of those I came to cherish in the end, as, as Phil Labonte from All that remains once put it, gifts that keep giving.

@FranztheStampede - thought you had a witty remark there, didn't you?
OffLine Jure Franko
  2018-10-31 18:08:41    
You cannot be a public person if you cannot take it. It is childish that you cry about somebody bullying you with calling you fat. I am a boy and I went trough what boys usualy get trough. So in my opinion Joey didn't bully her...but that's me. I come from times climbers were somehow more tough, bold and didn't act like fiaries.. I respect both Joe and Sasha. But that whole story was just wrong.
OffLine Sebastian Peace
  2018-10-31 19:01:31    
@Jure: You have a point that a public person on the internet shoud be able to withstand trolls but this situation seems a bit different because they knew eachother for such a long time.
(@Joe: I am glad you learned from the situation and I wish you all the best. Nice send!)
OffLine Robert Kasper
  2018-10-31 19:10:18    
I had to learn in my old job, that once you got yourself in deep shit, you can hardly go back. People will only see what they want. Everything you say will be interpreted differently. Well i got a new job now, but that it was a tough lesson.

All the best, Joe. Stay strong and climb on
OffLine paolocar88
  2018-10-31 19:32:07    
+1 for Joe then!
Keep on sending!

@Jure: people are different and react very differently.
You can't say that if you are a public person you must take everything.
There is always a limit, especially if the other has expressed the inconvenience of those comments.
Apparently Sasha had some personal psychological issues with getting weight, etc, and being bullied about that hurt her even more.
You just can't blame her...

Btw now they both got back sending hard routes and that's what counts!
OffLine Daniel "Little Debbie" Jordan
  2018-10-31 23:15:05    
Looks like such a sick line...Flatanger comes to the Skull Cave. I'll always be a Joe Kinder fan!
OffLine Dan Cannaday
  2018-11-01 05:49:43    
I think there is unquestionably a place for Joe in the climbing community. He has an amazing gift in his abilities and his energy is infectious and inspiring. He is constantly giving back to the community that once held him up and supported his lifestyle and I think its amazing and impressive that he's forging ahead in the same style without all the support (financial and otherwise) backing him. As a teacher of secondary ed students I've enjoyed debating the whole Sasha and Joe debacle with my students and looking at the power of social media, both in the direction of Sasha but then also as it has drastically affected Joe as well. Joe take heart in knowing others are learning from your mistakes as well and whether others believe your apology or not I've used it to encourage my students to become better men by holding it up as a high standard for taking responsibility for one's actions. Nice send on the new route and keep up the inspiring work on the rocks!
OffLine Jan V'
  2018-11-01 16:09:16    
@Jure Franko don't judge other people so easily.
"You cannot be a public person if you cannot take it." - I can guarantee you almost everyone (bar sociopaths maybe) has margin of distress he/she can tolerate, but there is a border where, if exceeded, things begin to be painful for him/her. Anyhow, to me it doesn't look she can't take it. To me it looks like she's alive, just defending herself.

"It is childish that you cry about somebody bullying you with calling you fat." I don't know whether it's childish. What I know is everyone does something childish from time to time. You don't? Anyway what hurts us can differ from person to person (both mentally and physically, it's inseparable). Fact you don't understand this doesn't mean it isn't true.

"I am a boy and I went trough what boys usualy get trough." And? Why are you stressing simple fact that you are boy, why is that important? What if she went through much more than you?
OffLine Philippe Vaucher
  2018-11-01 16:20:21    
Also apparently she tried to resolve the matter privately for years, but because it would not stop she had to call it out. If that's correct, she was far from being childish.
OffLine Joe Kinder
  2018-11-01 17:58:11    
To Dan Cannaday thanks for the positivity and sharing. It's great to learn this story is being told to educate others to be respectful to one another and learn from it. I would LOVE to speak to your students in an effort of sharing this story first hand and to learn from them.

to Philippe Vaucher "Also apparently she tried to resolve the matter privately for years, but because it would not stop she had to call it out."

This is untrue and very unfortunate that people were told this. Sasha had never tried to handle this incident privately. Ever. There was no effort on her part to contact me on any matter of being bullied, hurt or put down, in messages, email, phone, or anyway. If she had of course I would have understood that I was hurting her and surely stopped. She had a decision as to how to handle it and chose to expose the matter to hundreds of thousands of people before contacting me.

We were friends beforehand and communicated on a loose basis. I never saw anything I did to her as bullying and surely would never say I bullied her for years. That's just untrue.

To try to make the best out of this situation isn't easy standing alone. The sponsors had to do what they had to do and I'll accept that, but there's a lot more to this story that needs to be exposed and I'm looking for a way. But until then I appreciate you all sharing your thoughts. For this to be discussed on 8A.nu feels comfortable to me as I have been a part of this website since it started. (Yup... Old school Joe). 8a has always been a source for me that caters to real climber-climbers and the people that may be just as obsessed as I am. Anyway... thanks for the respectful discussions you guys.

I'm off to the cliff. Ciao.
OffLine Mark Nauser
  2018-11-02 09:08:04    
I must admit that I dislike Sasha. Not due to this "incident", but due to that whole "conquering Eiger" debacle. Media presented her ascent as something extraordinary, as a huge battle and a first female ascent of a hard route, but in reality, what they did was nothing extraordinary (for european climbers at least). She came across as inexperienced and easily frightened, and the route is a mere 7c+, which is far away from "world-class" level. Their style was not very good - they first approached the route from the top, rappelled and put up fixed lines before going for a free ascent. Add to this that this route was actually their backup goal - they bailed from Paciencia due to "bad conditions", even though Paciencia WAS climbable at that time (2 scottish guys climbed it just fine). Knowing all this, their ascent was really not something that would warrant as much attention as they got.

But OK - that's media, I guess. But watching videos of Sasha and Carlo standing on the ridge, waving american flag in the sunset while chopper is filming them was just - cringey. Reading the "conquer Eiger" interviews - even more so. I have no love for such "media" climbers who are so quick to distort the truth. #EigerDreams my a**. Tell it how it is.

Joe, on the other hand, seems like a real deal. Puts up real hard FAs and admits his faults. Thumbs up!

We can all learn the lesson here - in today's world, it's not important how hard you climb, just make sure your instagram image is polished, kid-safe and in line with current social trends - and you're good. Who cares what really happens at the rock, right?
OffLine Philippe Vaucher
  2018-11-02 09:20:23    
@Joe Kinder: if she never tried to solve this privately then a lot of websites reported this wrong, for example at https://www.theinertia.com/news/pro-climber-joe-kinder-dropped-by-sponsors-for-cyber-bullying-sasha-digiulian here's what was said (there other sources saying the same thing):

"According to DiGiulian, Kinder’s posting has been “malicious and ongoing” for some eight years. She finally posted publicly about it after reaching out to Kinder privately on multiple occasions."

I believe you when you say you were not aware you were hurting. As the bullying posts are deleted, it's hard for us to really know how much of the story is Sasha not communicating properly or you not able/wanting to see the damage you were doing... but what is certain is that in her post, Sasha says:

"I have received many messages about the ridicule that someone has made about me and my career. I have tried reaching out maturely, with no response. I find it incredibly sad that he has chosen this road."

Why didn't you correct this in your apology post? You silent agreement makes it hard for people not to take Sasha's version as the source of truth.

Anyway, my guess is that the signs were there but you didn't see them because you thought there was nothing wrong. When she publicly called you out and lots of people labelled your actions as wrong, then you realised.

I believe you learned your lessons and I like the way you own your mistakes. If you continue this humble path I think sponsors will eventually be back, but if the bullying really went for years it will also take years for your image to be restored. Keep up the good work!
OffLine Christoph Barthel
  2018-11-02 12:21:31    
I absolutely agree with what Mark Nauser said!

Sasha repeatedly proved to be an untrustworthy person in the past with her wild media exaggerations. That's why I doubt that her story gives the full picture, eventhough it is next to impossible to know for sure as an outsider.

Joe, besides admitting your own shortcomings, which you did, I hope you manage to get the full story out there.
OffLine red swine
  2018-11-02 15:26:29    
Since it starts to feel like most people in this forum are feeling a lot of compassion for "poor" Joe: I am not a fan of Sasha either for the reasons set forth by others above, but - if the part of the story is true - if not please correct it - Joe not only bullied people, but even made up a fake account to do so! This is the textbook definition of an internet troll and specially mean and cowardly in my opinion. I don't think someone's existence should be destroyed over a mistake like that, but I wish it would take a LONG time before he/she would be accepted back into the rank of esteemed "star" climbers, who are admired and idolized.

[I am aware of the irony that I am not using my real name in here, but hey, I am not trying to insult anyone]
OffLine Nicola Baratella
  2018-11-02 15:50:05    
Joe's the real deal!! Keep it up man.
OffLine Hans Markus Rød
  2018-11-02 17:20:44    
And on the Eiger, DiGuilian is obviously not the real deal...... Brace yourselves cause this is some funny reading

Excerpt from reddit: Communication was also a main aspect of Sasha DiGiulian’s 2015 Eiger “adventure”: before she went to the Eiger on Facebook and on her return in interviews and talk shows. She reported that only "terrible weather" and a wet crux prevented their success in “Paciencia”. And when Carlo Traversi got sick, she climbed “alone”in the wall. Our information is a different one. The US duo lead climbed only a handful of pitches. Most of the time they used the fixed ropes by another party on “Odyssey” to check out moves on top rope. And during her so called “solo climb” Sasha (belayed by Robert Jasper) did not even get to the second bolt in the crux pitch. “Almost sent the pitch" is somewhat exaggerated, one can think. Furthermore, the conditions in the second-best alpine summer were not so bad at all. “Paciencia” got redpointed by Robbie Phillips and Willis Morris and Roger Schäli and Mich Kemeter shortly before and shortly after Sasha and Carlo were on the route. The Americans switched to “Magic mushroom” (7c. 2o SL), a 2oo7 line opened by Roger Schäli and Christoph Hainz, redpointed by Stephan Siegrist. It ends on the famous mushroom – a base jump exit on the west ridge. From there Sasha and Carlo rappelled and installed fixed ropes in the headwall and then score the route in three days. Supposedly other climbers could not even think of climbing there at this time with all the fixed ropes and drones buzzing around. Once on top they made a selfie with the US flag and on the next day they got stuck rappelling and called a helicopter. The euphoric US media called DiGiulians “adventure” “Conquering the Eiger”.
For Robert Jasper, the whole story has a bad aftertaste. His plea to all aspiring alpine climbers: "Remember, you make your own adventures. If you use all means necessary, you reduce the intensity of your experience. What I despise most about such actions is that goals and dreams of other climbers are overshadowed. Let's hope that in Grindelwald where ski rental is big business in winter they won’t introduce a “clipstick rental” in summer.”
OffLine Mark Nauser
  2018-11-02 19:42:45    
@red swine: This has nothing to do with "compassion". It is indeed stupid to needlessly insult other people over the internet. But so is insulting my intelligence with dishonest "conquered Eiger, yay!" BS.

Joe has at least admitted his mistakes. I can respect that.
OffLine rai
  2018-11-02 20:39:13    
@Joe Kinder: I wish you crush the extension of Bone Tomahawk...
OffLine rai
  2018-11-02 20:39:19    
...