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Forum: GLOBAL / Open Forum / Buy local topos, it helps bolitng the cliffs. Login in to contribute
Buy local topos, it helps bolitng the cliffs.
OffLine sissy fuss
  2010-11-03 21:50:49    
The title of this thread is actually a quote by Marco Troussier taken from another thread. What do people think? Should local topos and guide books support the development and maintenance of local cliffs?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2010-11-04 12:57:03    
I think that they in most cases do. Often the local topo producers are the same guys who also bolts the routes. What Marco refers to is that sometimes, the locals put together a guide which is later copied by somebody in order to make money.
OffLine crank_n_up
  2010-11-04 18:57:26    
Well, I reckon guide books should support maintenance and development of routes and crags. If guide books are published without doing so, they should be boykotted.
OffLine Joseph Hinkel
  2010-11-05 21:05:38    
Point in case: the relatively new guide book to the Blue Mountains near Sydney. It's nicely made, contains quite a bit of new routes and crags but antagonised a large portion of the people developing new stuff in the Blue Mountains.
OffLine Anton Serilast
  2010-11-06 19:30:58    
@Joseph - I have a copy of that guide book. It's quite presentable, although information is sometimes quite inconsistent and hard to follow if you are not local. However, why do you think the guide book antagonised local developers? I thought that the guide book was written by some locals?
OffLine Joseph Hinkel
  2010-11-07 12:14:30    
The guide book editor published information on some new crags against the wish of the developers. He has never bolted a route himself, and he refuses to support cliff development from the proceeds of the guide book. He runs a business, and he wants to make money. Period. Quite a dick-head really.
OffLine Iris DeBaglio
  2010-11-07 21:51:39    
That is really bad. So route developers should make own book, no? And climbers should not buy from his business, no?
OffLine sissy fuss
  2010-11-08 09:00:03    
Well, I think here is the catch:
Commercial guide book publishers have the ressources to produce books to a professional standard that will appeal to the masses. People who develop crags usually don't have access to these skills.
On the other hand, commercial publishers usually have the main interest of making a profit. And supporting crag developers decreases the profit.
OffLine Oliver Kerr
  2010-11-09 05:19:32    
Now I know this is my first post on 8a but I would like to point out that there is a high probability that sissy fuss, crank_n_up and Joseph Hinkel are the same person with the same agenda.  None have any previous posts on 8a and this issue has been aired before on other climbing forums. For the other side of the story please see the original thread on www.chockstone.org started back in June: http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=1&MessageID=86684 The issue has recently been brought up on ukclimbing.com, rockclimbing.com and on this sight simultaneously.  The ukclimbing and rockclimbing threads are here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=431533 http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2418769 I myself support Simon Carters position on all this but please make up your own minds.  Don't decide Simon Carter is a "dick-head" until you have read the original thread at least. PS This is Simon Carters full response and original response to the original raising of the issue on www.chockstone.org: Gee Martin! Firstly Martin, your efforts to paint me as someone who is solely motivated by money and who does not contribute anything is so far from the truth as to be insulting. Those comments are a reflection of you Martin, not of the reality of the situation. I’ll try to be brief. I think Steve Grkovic and Megan Turnbull have done a lot of incredible work putting up new routes and mean well. But personally I think they — and you — are a bit off target on this issue. And if you want to totally change the way things have always been done in this country, then I’m not sure that you are going the best way about it. Earlier I received this from you in an email Martin and I quote:  “I have been bolting a few routes here and there in established areas around the Blue Mountains over the past months and years. I would be happy to share this information with you in exchange for 50 ring bolts…” And later on this:  “As for my own small bolting efforts, I will not contribute the information for free; and I ask that you do not include my new routes into the new guide book unless you comply with my request.” Yep. So now as far as Boganville is concerned, about a month ago when I decided that I would have time to include Boganville in the new guidebook I phoned Steve and asked him if he’d provide any information. Right from the onset of the conversation Steve made it patently clear that he was not at all interested in providing any info because I hadn’t paid (yes, money) for the bolting of NEW routes. Since this conversation I’ve had email correspondence with Steve and Megan and the question of whether Steve had initially said he wanted me to pay them personally is something that we do not agree on. Whatever, I’m not interested in the semantics. They definitely expected me to pay someone for new routes, if it wasn’t them then they never specified who else I should be paying, or who else they were speaking for, and they never mentioned a new route fund or whatever else I should be paying to.  It’s fine. It really doesn’t bother me; I understand people have different agendas. But for a whole wide range of reasons I’m not going to pay for this sort of info. And I’m already committed to what I think are much fairer ways of giving back to the climbing community (Trackcare especially). I’m not going to change my decision on that just because a few people demand it. Boganville has been around for years. It’s on public land. It is a solid one hour hike out along Narrowneck and will never be all that popular. Other people have also developed routes there and those people appeared quite keen for the area and info to go in the guidebook. They were helpful and perfectly happy to provide info when I approached them. I considered a bunch of issues and decided to put the area in the guidebook. I put in all the info I could get from various sources, provided a little warning and explanation why the some info is lacking. I’ve not made up names for Steve and Megan’s routes there, though easily could have, and think a whole bunch of routes called “Unknown” is a little boring myself. So anyhow I had phoned, texted and emailed Steve and Megan. Asked them and tried to encourage them to provide info about this or anything else for the guidebook. I tried to give them every opportunity but it was clear that they were not interested. It’s their decision but personally I think they’ve missed out on a great opportunity.  Boganville is a nice little addition to the guidebook. But to keep it in context there are of 45 different areas and approx 2700 routes in the book. The book is the result of an incredible amount of work, not just by me but by many people. The amount of work that some people have contributed is absolutely phenomenal. I know that a lot of people care about this book and the quality of the information in it. If it was all about money for me then this book would simply not exist in the form that it is. It would have been finished months earlier and perhaps the toll it has taken on other areas of my life would have been avoided. Martin, you just sound bitter to me and this is whole lot of sour grapes for sure. This is also whole lot of crying over spilt milk. Steve and Megan wrote this to me in an email: “Our contributions to the development of Boganville have always been with a view to future publication, and that has not changed. It may be this year, or the next.” The info on Boganville was going to come out soon anyway! Finally Martin, please stop misrepresenting conversations to which you were not privy. And please stop being so hypocritical.  Anyway this thread has been interesting if for no other reason that it is so rare to see so many Chockstoners agreeing on something! Cheers, Simon
OffLine Jack Dixon
  2010-11-09 06:32:17    
Oh!!.. I gotta get in on this!!  I HATE PIRATE GUIDES!!!  I can't claim to know the particulars about this guide or if it's a "flag flying" pirate but, the simple fact is this: If you haven't put up, developed, poured out blood and sweat or even had a fist fight in the parking lot with spray painters at a crag in question... then you probably don't deserve to make a dime off of someone elses effort! Simple test: say to yourself; am I worthy?  Am I a long term local?  Will I be exploiting the work of others? Why should I make money off of this crag and these climbs?  Did I put them up? Did I pay for the hardware?  Did I spend the months or even YEARS developing this area? If you don't have the right answers to these questions and you take it upon yourself to write a guide I hope your ship sinks!!
OffLine Anton Serilast
  2010-11-09 09:16:03    
@Oliver - your ramble sounds a bit like Jens (perhaps with a spell checker) :) Are you sure you are who you say you are? And what is the agenda? Can we hear about the theory behind the conspiracy? Or maybe get back to the original topic? @Scracus - well said. Or are you also part of the split personality agenda?
OffLine Oliver Kerr
  2010-11-09 12:04:04    
@Scracus: This is distinctly not a pirate guide.  Simon Carter is a Blue Mountains local, he has climbed extensively in the Blue Mountains.  He also contributes a lot to the climbing community, in terms of both time and money.  A percentage of profits from the guide go to Blue Mountains TrackCare, an organisation dedicated to fixing tracks around crags to protect from erosion.  Simon also participates in TrackCare days at various local crags. @Anton Serilast I dont understand how I rambled - I first pointed out that this issue has extensively been dealt with in an origianl Australian thread.  I also point out that it has been brought up in two international forums recently presenting only one side of the story, as has happened here.  I will go on to point out that it has also been brought up in another forum here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1312655&tn=0&mr=0 I then went on to quote Simon Carter's original post in which he defended himself from these accusations.  They are Simon Carter's words, not mine.  I am who I say I am.  If you care to visit chockstone.org you will see a picture of me on the front page climbing in the Blue Mountains.  Here is a link: http://www.chockstone.org/Gallery/Picture.asp?PictureID=219 Here is my profile page on chockstone.org which I have been a member of for over two years: http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Profile&UserName=Olbert Post edit: when I had a look it seems as if sissy fuss, Joseph Hinkel, Anton Serilast and Iris DeBaglio are all crank_n_up.  Crank_n_up is anonymous himself but he has posted on this topic on at least four other climbing forums (although it seems he exclusively posts about boycotting Simon Carter's guide or calender).  If any of these people are actually real people it can be easily proved by providing links to any other forum posts or profiles that arent related to dissing Simon Carter.  
OffLine Joseph Hinkel
  2010-11-09 13:10:27    

ram·ble  / ˈræm bəl / [ ram -b uh l]
verb, -bled, -bling, noun

–verb (used without object)
1. to wander around in a leisurely, aimless manner: They rambled through the shops until closing time.
2. to take a course with many turns or windings, as a stream or path.
3. to grow in a random, unsystematic fashion: The vine rambled over the walls and tree trunks.
4. to talk or write in a discursive, aimless way (usually fol. by on ): The speaker rambled on with anecdote after anecdote.
OffLine Oliver Kerr
  2010-11-09 14:04:05    
OffLine Joseph Hinkel
  2010-11-09 15:38:27    
HAHA!  Touche and respect, Oliver :) :) I like a good reposte :) :)
OffLine DWF
  2010-11-09 18:00:47    
Boycott Rockfax! Buy local topos, it helps bolitng the cliffs!!!!!
OffLine Jack Dixon
  2010-11-09 18:11:35    
Not to get dragged into this specific case/crag in question, because, as I have previously stated, I don't know the particulars about the Blue Mountains or that proposed guide or the author,,, but one of the most important criteria, in my mind, for writing a guide is: do the "developing locals" want you to write it? You know, just hanging around a crag for a year or two or even three, maybe doing some "trail" days, a little climbing (probably not at the "cutting" development edge), does not really make a would be author worthy!  Typically it takes many years if not decades to fully develope an area and if the people actually establishing the climbs don't want a particular person to write a guide; maybe they don't feel like the area is fully developed/mature, maybe they simply don't want a guide to the area, as is the case with some areas, maybe a guide is in the works with a truely "worthy" would be author; in any such case the wishes of the established "most worthy" locals should be respected otherwise the guide IS A PIRATE!!  This is a touchy difficult thing to establish but any author should be prepared to ask themselves; DO I REALLY DESERVE TO MAKE MONEY OFF OF SOMEONE ELSES EFFORT??  And if "no" then walk away, go develope an area yourself  and then write a guide! We'll see how you feel when someone comes along and wants to pirate you!!!
OffLine Marco Troussier
  2010-11-09 18:55:15    
I was yesterday in Saint Beauzille de Montmel, short cliff close to Montepellier. There was a fire this summer and the all cliff burn. The 160 routes must be inspected, the cliff must be clean, and lots of bolts must be  replace. There is a french topo and .....a rock fax one too. Does Mister James plan to help us ...or give money back (remember M Thatcher about Europe: I want my money back!) or just wait the job to be done and sell guide books ? This is typically what we are speaking about ....... Buy Local, help local .....
OffLine sissy fuss
  2010-11-10 00:24:14    
@Marco - have you tried asking Rockfax? p.s. sorry to have borrowed your quote for the title of this thread.