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Forum: GLOBAL / Editorial / Wanting to stop the guy who already stopped chipping? Login in to contribute
Wanting to stop the guy who already stopped chipping?
OffLine 8a.nu
  2019-02-18 00:00:00    
Rock & Ice have published an open letter - Chipping and Manufacturing Climbs in Ten Sleep Canyon Needs to Stop. The original letter is mainly pointing out one guy who last week come clean and said he had stopped chipping almost a year ago. This is how he finished a post in a Facebook thread.

"I also in no way am trying to discount what I have done. Regardless of what was done previously in the canyon, I have crossed lines when bolting some of my routes. I own this 100% and have paid for those choices, am now paying for them, and will no doubt pay more in the future for them."

I have been in contact with the guys writing the open letter and asked the question why they run the - Stop the chipping campaign, when it was stopped almost a year ago? As I did not get any answer, is there anybody who knows what this really is about, as also R & I picked it up?
OffLine Philippe Vaucher
  2019-02-19 16:51:02    
Based on the FB discussion the guy changed stance but without notifying anyone, hence the (useless?) petition.

Basically they met with him and he told them that he would do whatever he wants to do. Then after this petition he's now telling that he changed and does not want to chip anymore.

Given the number of people saying that he was still for chipping after their initial reunion, I assume he only changed his mind because of all the fuss the petition started. I'm also not sure how trustworthy his words are, only time will tell. What is sure is that the amount of chipping done there is atrocious.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-02-19 19:02:58    
He stopped chipping almost one year ago so his stance has nothing to do with the petition.

I planned to also publish the open letter but before I did I contacted the accused guy.

Then I told the guy who markets the petition that we will only publish it if they can say he chipped the last year. This they could not do and instead they contacted R&I.

Very hard to understand that they are doing it. They have already made him stop and even so they want him to stop?
OffLine Jason Crank
  2019-02-19 19:42:41    
Even if the (current) culprit is, by their own admission, stopped, theres merit in the letter. Its not just a petition to stop him, its widely announcing that this is unacceptable practice for the future. Would hate for later generations to come along and after seeing the glue and drilling think that its an acceptable mode of operation in the canyon, only to further deface other cliffbands in the area. Also, chipping a bunch of stuff and then very quietly stopping, they don't know if he stopped last year or last week. Hows anyone going to know that. Its a good letter at a good time.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-02-19 19:56:50    
They know that he stopped chipping almost a year ago as I personally emailed this to the guy who is running the petition.
I agree that this is an unacceptable practice but then why do you make such headline which is totally wrong.
OffLine Henning Wang
  2019-02-19 22:36:02    
This is a bigger problem then people realise many places all over the world. Writting this article, if the guy stopped or not, is very relevant. I for one think this problem should get all the attention it can to stop these idiots ruining climbing for the rest of us and the generations to come. If this guy stopped or not is to me completely irelevant, the damage has been done, and is still being done all around us.. Too few are speaking up or saying anything. You should be focusing on the message Jens, not on this one guy that is never mentioned in the article...
OffLine Sebastian Peace
  2019-02-19 23:10:34    
I don't think chipping is a problem. It is a solution! Nothing is to hard, isn't that wonderful? Holds that hurt your fingers? Get the drill and hammer! Maybe this is the future of climbing, where can I buy some smart chipping gear? ISPO 2020?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-02-20 08:16:19    
@ Henning: As you know, 8a has been active against chipping since we started.

The plan was to publish the letter also on 8a but as the guy had stopped chipping and they did know it. I thought it was totally wrong to publish it. I can not understand why r&i asked for the chipping to be stopped when he had stopped almost a year ago and also said he was sorry.

If they had rewritten it talking about what had happened we would have published it in the first place. Now it was published as the name had been taken out and we asked for more info, i.e. he had not stopped. As nobobody have come forward saying he did not stop even on r&i Facebook where I also posted. I just think it is crazy that go out asking a guy to stop who stopped almost a year ago.
OffLine Charlie Garcia
  2019-02-20 08:33:09    
How do you, Jens, defend the one person who has a history of chipping in different areas across the US, and blame everyone else for calling out his atrocities? The atrocities you claim you are/were against since you started?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-02-20 09:10:57    
If he stopped almost one year ago you must agree that it is totally wrong to ask him to stop.

The open letter and the article should have been written in another way talking about how they made him stop and that in the end he understood that what he had done was totally wrong.

Now they miss this important message by asking him to stop even he he did it almost a year ago.
OffLine janez miklavčič
  2019-02-20 10:24:44    
The quality of articles on 8a.nu is what you should be worried about Jens not the articles the other media publishes...
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-02-20 11:39:00    
I have written and presented articles on 8a since 1999 to the best of my ability. 8a is the leading sport climbing website in the world. I present at least three times as many articles as any other climbing media platforms. Please come with constructive comments and I hope the increase the quality of my 8a articles.

I could just imagine what the 8a forum would have said if I presented an article saying a guy, who stopped chipping one year ago, should stop chipping.
OffLine Jason Crank
  2019-02-20 16:00:39    
Jens, lets be clear. The letterarticle uses the plural in all instances. "Perpetrators" " ones currently doing the most unethical behavior". They didn't single anybody out. There is one fairly sideways inference to an individual that some people will catch but the community at large might not if they don't have an idea who the players are.

For one of the admittedly more guilty people to come out and say they have stopped is not reason enough to not call out the behavior and make an example of it, especially if, while they might be the most guilty, they are not the only guilty party.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-02-20 16:14:40    
Can we agree that the headline was totally wrong?

I agree on what you say but what I have problem to understand is that in the headline they say they something that stopped one year ago should stop. This is just totally wrong I hope we can agree on that?
OffLine janez miklavčič
  2019-02-20 16:53:36    
Please read again...i question the quality of the articles not the quantity.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-02-20 18:57:10    
Please read again...

I have written and presented articles on 8a since 1999 to the best of my ability.
Please come with constructive comments and I hope the increase the quality of my 8a articles.
OnLine JLH
  2019-02-20 20:54:30    
This is the main point of the R&I article (which Jens obviously missed):
"This is where we need your help.
We ask now for the climbing community’s support to protect the natural beauty and variety of Ten Sleep Canyon’s walls. Promises that this won’t happen in the future are not enough. We ask now that these crags of manufactured routes be removed from the walls and from guidebooks, to stop the encouragement and normalization of these practices."
OffLine Robert Kasper
  2019-02-20 21:07:53    
First, I think its the locals who decide what the situation is and how it should be dealt with and maybe not a guy sitting an office in stockholm.

and secondly jens, you had your fair share of missleading headlines, so what are you trying to prove here?

We will never understand you. I think we all can agree on this at last
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-02-20 21:32:13    
If what you say was the main point of the article why not write such headline?

Further more, I do not like that manufactured routes should be removed from walls and from topos? If this would spread around the world we would get the biggest conflict in the climbing history and it will never end.

I would think that a big part of the guys signing the petition do not want all chipped routes to be removed and taken out of the topos. I would think that many have just signed based on what was written in the headline.
OnLine JLH
  2019-02-20 22:04:53    
There's nothing wrong with the headline. "Chipping and Manufacturing Climbs in Ten Sleep Canyon Needs to Stop". You should read the open letter to see what authors of the letter think would stop chipping. Removing bolts may seem extreme, but this is what Kardaleff, Huey and Haab propose in this particular case (extensive chipping in last three years in this area and many more in other areas, with a clear intention to make money out of it). If you don't agree with what the letter proposed, you shouldn't sign it.
IMO nobody wants to suggest bolts to be removed elsewhere. Manufacturing routes was considered 'normal' decades ago, at least in some areas and is now part of climbing history, or at least it should be...
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-02-20 22:14:06    
But the Chipping and Manufacturing was stopped almost a year ago.

I very sure, if they will remove all bolts on the chipped routes and remove them from the topos, this thinking will be spread and will cause a major conflict.

Th guy who made most of the chipping has said he was wrong and has stopped almost a year ago. I can not understand why this is not good enough. Instead they go All in which might create a chain reaction of conflicts around the world.

I should also say, that I was the only one of the major developers in Sweden who did never chip routes some 20 years ago. Many of my best friends did chip and it did take long discussions before they stopped. To tell them that all of their chipped routes should be removed would have created a major conflict.

Further more, when it comes to limestone routes, it is almost impossible to draw a line which routes was chipped and which was not? Who should act like the police?
OnLine JLH
  2019-02-21 08:19:37    
Obviously they don't believe promises will stop him and his imitators, a stronger 'message' is needed.
No, in this case it's not a problem to "draw a line", it's been crossed with a wide margin.
OffLine Robert Kasper
  2019-02-21 09:28:47    
When someone reserves the right to chip then another has the right so refuse this chipping an close the artificial holds and chop bolts.
Chipping is over and it should be dealt with accordingly. Only a stong message will do the Job.

Who should act as the Police? The local community again. All unnecessarily chipped routes installed after a certain time (the 90'ies) should be banned after discussion.

If this creates polemics, its the chippers who will have to explain why it was chipped
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-02-21 22:46:57    
The message was so strong that the chipper stopped almost a year ago. Why increase the conflict and risk it could be spread around the world chopping all bolts on chipped routes.

Sure, if the guy had continued you could send him a message that future routes could be chopped but as he already stopped almost a year ago, it seems just crazy to start chopping the bolts.

He stopped without facing a threat so why start chopping as he already stopped?

Chipping has almost stopped like 20 years ago, without chopping bolts...so why start this campaign as he already stopped chipping. I do think there must be some personal agenda hidden here...
OffLine elMito
  2019-02-22 11:46:06    
Yes it is rather shitty to be drilling holds in a pristine environment that the rock mainly is. Through the short history of sport climbing people of climbing community came to an unwritten conclusion that chipping is bad practice so generally it stopped.
Obviously there are still some bad apples and obviously people are trying to stop that aswell.
I understand the call for this particular area. The guy said he stopped but the petition in my opinion is trying to block any kind of similar action in the future and is not targeting at him directly.
But what I never really understood is the negative stance on chipped routes anywhere. Especially on old existing chipped routes.
It is if you like it or not a part of our history and should be respected in that manner.
It was wrong, yes. But it's there.
And there are some beautiful chipped routes out there.
You can see the vision and you can feel the struggle they must have had seeing a beautiful cliff, blank but worth to be climbed.
What they saw as a solution to their lack of ability and egotistical need to be the first we now see differently. And we should act accordingly.
But not with banning from topos or chopping bolts. That's more a sign of hypocricy than anything else. Just stop chipping. That's all.
Another thing, a route is a route! Whether it's chipped or natural it's a climb. No need to demonise an ascent because the route was chipped.
Remember, we grade difficulty not a product.
And this is a call to 8a.nu ticklist. The remark chipped should only be a side remark not a finger pointing as it now appears to be.
OffLine Sebastian Peace
  2019-02-22 12:12:00    
I was always stunned by Fred Rouhling's 'De l'autre côté du ciel' as an example of a cool looking chipped route. On the other hand, would this route be possible without the manufactured holds by future/stronger climbers? Sadly we might never find out and this is imho the biggest problem with chipping rock. You might take away from others. There is also the story of Daniel Woods's boulder 'The game' (V16->V15) where some holds supposedly got bigger or the sad story of Kaiser Sauzé by Romain Desgranges. All in all I agree with elMito. "THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH CLIMBING CHIPPED ROUTES, JUST DON'T MAKE NEW!!!"
OnLine JLH
  2019-02-22 20:52:03    
"But not with banning from topos or chopping bolts. That's more a sign of hypocricy..."

Whom do you call hypocrite? Authors of the letter, those who signed?

Extreme actions need extreme reactions. With no reaction the message would be year long substantial chipping to turn natural crag to 'user-friendly outdoor gym' for visitors of your camping ground and buyers of your 'new, substantially updated' guidebook is OK. Just say you are sorry and you're ready to become a successful businessman.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2019-02-22 20:59:47    
There was discussion like one year ago that made him stop so why do you talk about “no reaction”?

The issue has been solved so why bring it up again risking that chopping might spread. There is a great risk that many in the local community do not want chopping of all bolts so start chopping will just create conflict. For me this is obvious and I do not understand that you see this.
OffLine elMito
  2019-02-26 17:07:58    
Well, it is some sort of a sign of hypocricy.
As it was mentioned before what would the bolt chopping criteria be? One manufactured hold? Two? A foothold? The whole route? I for one would be very disappointed even sad if some chipped routes around my area would be chopped down just to prove a point. But to make things clear, those are old routes regarded as classics so...
It's the same in showbiz or politics; one word can destroy decades of a career. Do we want that kind of two faced shit?
We are climbers! We rock! We operate differently. I hope!
So let's do this the old fashioned way. If you see the bastard chipping a route throw rocks at him/her/all other genders! :-D
But seriously; how would you police it? That is the real question. And further question is how to stop chipping at all?
Jens I think to bring it up again (and again and again) is a good thing since as stupid as we are, we are bringing our sport to a high level of mainstream. That means new crowds new polution new conflicts! And there definitely will be a new generation of developers who if not properly taught will probabily not have a critical view towards chipping. Why?
If I only think of young generations (majority) being used to get everything and anything right here and right now then there also probabily won't be any hesitation when there is only that one little foothold or crimp between doing a new route or failing to climb it.
So to highlight a problem to get more people to know we the climbing community condemn chipping as a whole I think it's a good thing.
Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe no one reads this and we're fucked anyhow!
OffLine michael moser
  2019-02-27 21:18:32    
i am not a big fan of chipping also, but

not everyone is living in a rock eldorado of infinfite quality and quantity.. i am living in an area where there are so many brittle walls that chipping/digging/hammering/glueing is almost a must to create any worthwile and safe climb..

i have seen hundreds of routes where i wasnt even sure if some of the holds were even manufactured, because it was so well done..

i have climbed many routes, especially in my area, where i was thankfull for a tiny bit of chipping here and there, otherwise i and many others would have to drive hours and hours more to even reach the next good crag, or even move to another place to keep up climbing outdoors..

and last but not least, the worst kind of chipping or altering i have seen in my live, was done by all of us, in areas where the rock is so brutally polished, that nothing will ever be able to repair the damage done by generations of climbers..