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Forum: GLOBAL / Editorial / Koyamada vs Ondra on Action Directe Login in to contribute
Koyamada vs Ondra on Action Directe
OffLine 8a.nu
  2017-10-06 00:00:00    
Anybody who could come up with an explanation why the much shorter who needs to jump higher does a very much dramatic pendulum swing in the first dyno?
OffLine Re_Si
  2017-10-07 06:53:44    
Nice work! Explanation of the different swings takes too much time to do here ;-)
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2017-10-07 09:06:35    
Please try to explain as I guess very few understands this. For me, I would think that a shorter person would make a bigger swing, based on simple physics.
OffLine Kenny Walker
  2017-10-07 11:01:57    
Jeez I know this is a controversial call but I’m just gonna say it... It seems pretty obvious the rope pulled tight on Dai and stopped the swing. It stops abruptly and there’s a tight rope between the draw and his waist. Blame the belayer, but there you go.
OnLine MichalM
  2017-10-07 12:26:37    
I know something about pbysics...so here it comes.

Lets assume the rope did not pull tight. It is still very probable that Dai would swing less. He is shorter and his 'wing span' is smaller too. If the two holds are just the right distance, then there is hardly any freedom of movement in his shoulders to allow that swing. Of course it requires very strong fingers...because they need to absorb the jump energy.
Not saying it is the case or how likely that is, but you can try in the gym on your own find two dynamic moves on jugs...so that finger strenght is not an issue...and try to do a jump where you have enough distance reserve and one where you barely can do it without releasing your lower hand...and you'll see yourself which swing is smaller.

Ciao M.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2017-10-07 12:46:06    
As Dai is shorter he must jump harder which would mean he would swing more, i.e let us assume a climber 2.5 meters who just have to jump 10 cm, clearly that person would swing out less compared to a 1 meter guy doing a monster jump.

I do not know if the Dai video is from the real ascent but one possibility for me is actually that what Kelly says, that the rope was tight.
OnLine MichalM
  2017-10-07 12:56:40    
What did i think...again Jens is making an extrem argument in a despered attempt to stick with his opinion.
I am saying a side campus move with bad or no feet...two climbers with wing span of 190cm and 170cm...consider jump length 140cm.

Not 10cm...you ask for an explanation...yet you dont want one that does not suit you...

I bet for you the Earth is still dead plain...right?
You managed to piss me off once again.
OnLine Philippe Vaucher
  2017-10-07 17:40:35    
It's simpler than that: Dai uses his foot to prevent the swing. You see that when he starts jumping that his left foot hits the wall pretty hard.

That and also the camera angles are different, making swing movements more apparent in Adam's version.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2017-10-07 17:50:10    
I see that his foot hits the wall and that explain why he does not rotate as Ondra but why does his swing just stop? This is like jumping out where his feet is like 45 degrees below and under him but even so, he almost does not pass the vertical line.
OffLine Robert Kasper
  2017-10-07 18:16:15    
boy anybody can see the swing is most stopped by the rope. the moment the swing stops he is just connected with his two hands and the rope. no feet

but maybe also a gravitational wave bounced into day the very moment and made him stop. shooowooshh. magic
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2017-10-07 23:41:39    
Having checked the video again, I find it strange that Dai stops the swing with his legs straight down. All other videos show climber stopping a much bigger swing with the legs bent. If you have the legs straight, you pendulum should be bigger in comparison if you take some of the momentum with your legs.

Further more, it is strange that it seems that the second swing for Dai is bigger than the first swing.
OnLine MichalM
  2017-10-08 06:20:52    
Find some article on paired shoulders biomechanics. It is the same argument as I did the first time...the distance between his hands is smaller for the second swing then it was the first time...this time it is also more of a vertical position...the movement is perpendicular to the shoulder-shoulder axis, where as the first time it is closer to parallel.

PS: you might need some basics in mechanics to understand the equations...and info on time dependent core engagement front and side, hand to hand distance vs wing span ratio and upper and lower leg muscle activity.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2017-10-08 10:08:11    
Thanks but I am sorry I do not understand. Could you please try to explain why it seems that his second swing outwards is bigger than the first swing?
OnLine MichalM
  2017-10-08 10:26:07    
Just try one thing...find a long bar where you can spread you hands as far apart as possible and try to swing your feet as much as you can...do the same with holding just 60% of that distance...

You need to imagine that your body is only flexible when your muscels and joints are not fully stretched out...once fully stretched out you simply can't move that much...of course in that case the peak force on your hands is much stronger...but if you can hold onto you will not swing too much...

Like in the semifinal reply from china when Dinara was climbing...she did a big footless dino and did stop the swing right in the middle...just try it.

You can do it statically as well hang full wingspread on holds and try to reach distant foothold...it will be much easier if the holds will be a bit closer and allow your shoulders to move...including a little flex in your elbow.
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2017-10-08 10:41:56    
What a load of bollocks. Seriously. Assumptions on assumptions on assumptions.

First: the assumption that a shorter person will have to jump more is wrong. The two climbers don't start form the same feet position and body position.

Second: there could be a number of other reasons for the different swings. First and foremost, different core strength. Reportedly, Adam wasn't exactly a beast of core strength at the time (he was what, 15?) and he was really out of his comfort zone doing AD. Not so for Dai, I'd wager.

Third: the actual execution. Who's to say that that's the best attempt that either of them had on that move? What if Adam sort of blew it but he climbed well the rest and there you go, that's a send and that's the one move that goes on the video?

Different climbers, different ways of doing supposedly the same move. No point in jensing it and trying to find the freaking E=mc² of climbing.
OffLine Tuf La
  2017-10-08 11:11:21    
I am taller than Dai Koyamada and shorter than Ondra, and my swing would most likely be much bigger than both... How does physic explain that?
OnLine MichalM
  2017-10-08 11:19:39    
I am done...I am talking one tje same climber and two swing sidw dyno of differrnt size close to your wingspan and a little less.
You don't really want me to write that you suck at dynoing. Right? ;-)
OffLine Tuf La
  2017-10-08 11:44:01    
Go ahead, that was my point :)
That discussion is pointless, there are so many other parameters than height... Let's just appreciate the style difference without trying to rationally explain it. The beauty their craft is spoiled by this useless discussion...
I guess I could choose to visit an other website to avoid this type of post, but somehow my worst impulses drag me back to this website from time to time. This whole argument is a good reminder, I will try harder to avoid 8a.nu from now on.
OffLine Atious
  2017-10-08 12:27:57    
*Franz the Stampede +1
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2017-10-08 12:38:03    
Tuf La, I feel your pain. It's a win-win for Jens most of the time. If nobody argues, then his idea is unchallenged and might eventually be taken as good by a less critical audience. A lie told 100 times becomes the truth, that type of thing.
If you go in an challenge what is (most often) nonsense, you create traffic for Jens, so he's still happy and can keep hailing that 8a is the best site of climbing news yadda yadda yadda.
OffLine Luzan Matyas
  2017-10-08 14:24:22    
Long post, grab a cup of tea.

This topic has been a traffic magnet ever since it was first brought up and it’s really not doing any good for anything or anybody. But you know what, it’s perfectly fine & natural to ask questions, what is not fine however is doubting the word of a reputable climber, such as Dai’s, especially when these doubts are based on assumptions in the most mis/uniformed manner. Might I remind whoever needs to be reminded here that this is a sensitive subject, and if we talk about it we should measure our words wisely, out of respect for Dai at first, and then for each other. And for WG as the matter of fact. Throwing salty words around doesn’t make us climbers look very good either.

How many hundred times have I done the first move on AD and on the replica might or might not be relevant here, what is relevant tho is finding the fine line decently between fact and assumption from people who have atleast tried the route or at the very least seen someone on it with their own eyes. Have you seen Dai with your own eyes on AD?

I have never seen Dai but I have seen some exceptional athletes on AD, such as Stefano Ghisolfi (short guy), Andy Barth (even shorter), Alex Megos cruising it, Stephan Vogt, Felix Neumarker, Melissa Le Neve (that was very eye-opening btw), Lena Herrmann (also very impressive), Jochen Perschmann and the list goes on, but the ones mentioned I’m sure you have heard of already. I’ve seen just about everything there, and you know what? Before seeing the top climbers try it I was trapped in a dark bubble too and did not believe what was possible. But for example when Ghisolfi or Andy do the first move, they are so madly strong that the swing is not a swing as it used to be once. Stiff as a stick, the illustration of core strength in the dictionary. Mark my words, I was in awe. Small guys, light and strong as pepper. I have footage somewhere, you might see it, if this topic stays clean and decent.

Some of these great climbers I’ve seen trained hard for AD, travelled a great distance for AD, waited for perfect weather and skin, for the stars to align etc. and all this planned into the short yearly few week window when an athlete peaks in shape for good ol’ rock climbing, if everything goes well. And usually it doesn’t, not for AD 9a atleast.

I am very curious how Dai’s training schedule and calendar looked like and how he managed to pinpoint everything all over from Japan. He might be sponsored, he might not pay the plane ticket, but getting everything perfect from the other side of the world for something this hard, is, excuse my language, a bigass gamble. But he succeeded! I could assume that if the rope did hold him back, he could have said “NO IT DIDN’T” so he doesn’t have to come back again and go through all the travelling discomfort again. But I won’t assume.

Separate fact from assumption:

I am not blind. Did the rope tighten in the video? Yes it did.
Did I see climbers with my own eyes do the first move with a sudden swing stop due to a strong core? Yes I did.
Could there be a coincidence where Dai’s rope tightened exactly at the moment when he stopped his swing due to his insanely strong body? Yes there could be.
Here’s the unpleasant truth: We know the rope has tightened but we do not know whether it influenced his ascent enough to not make it valid. But valid from who’s point of view? Our’s?

We have all the right to search the truth but as far as I know Dai claimed he did it, and due to lack of other consistently relevant, holdable, objective, irrefutable evidence that should be enough for everyone. If it’s not enough for us than that makes us equally guilty as a climber who is not honest for example. There is another similar topic which we all very well know about and nothing was solved there either.

Only Dai knows if he did it fair. If he lied then he knows it and that’s punishment enough for the rest of his life. Maybe he did it before or after the video without a tight rope? I don’t know. I don’t care. Might I also remind you that in the video Dai is performing one of the most solid ascents I have ever seen, comparable to Megos’s 5th repeat which I witnessed. Dai is stronger than nails, if he wanted he’d crank out the first move statically; possible but ridiculous. The rest of the moves look unreal too, for me atleast, because I know how mere mortals look. Nobody sayin' nothing about that... anyway. The power he has is unimaginable.

I feel that the comparison video is aiming to create a debate of this kind. Well bravo, here we are. I don’t like it, and neither should you.

This topic is slowly taking the integrity of credibility in climbing down the drain. Or not the topic so much but the human nature to poke someone’s eye out if our perfect little performance criteria is not met regardless of evidence. Innocent until proven guilty? Guilty until proven innocent? Sit down, son.

Have some respect. For everyone. If you really want to find out the truth, get into the deep world of AD, or even better, visit Dai, appreciate him, bring him a present for his efforts and just ask. And maybe he will tell you something that nobody else knows.
Can we all be friends? :)
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2017-10-08 18:01:46    
I totally agree with Luzan and as he is the only expert here we should all agree with him.
OffLine Li-How
  2017-10-09 09:33:41    
Udo Newmann has interesting explanations about the pendulum in a dyno in his book "The art and science of bouldering". Well worth the read!
OffLine Franz the Stampede
  2017-10-09 11:40:01    
" I totally agree with Luzan and as he is the only expert here we should all agree with him. "

Behold the strong opinion leader! He will hear no reason from the random users, but when a demonstrably stronger climber appears, he changes his opinion accordingly! "And we should all agree with him!"

It doesn't take an 8b, 9a or whatever climber to understand what core strength can make you stop a swing, even drastically. Anybody with some common sense can realise that.

Also, a tight rope is no evidence of that same rope bearing weight, especially in a video of that quality and from that perspective. It could be that the rope had lost all slack but wasn't tight enough to actually cut the swing and give Dai an advantage.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2017-10-09 13:34:26    
I have not changed my opinion. I have talked more to Luzan and we have the same opinion.

"I am not blind. Did the rope tighten in the video? Yes it did."

Further more I have just asked questions and two remain not answered. Why is Dai's second swing bigger than his first? How can he stop the swing with the legs straight down?

Normally you have the legs bent when you are furthest out in the swing. Have you ever seen a climber stopping a big swing with the legs not bent at all?

It should be mentioned that I do not question that Dai has done AD I have just been curious why he does not swing like everyone else?
OffLine Kenny Walker
  2017-10-09 15:36:59    
The “we should all agree with him” statement is silly Jens. But come on guys, this discussion is all getting a bit ridiculous. It’s obvious the rope stopped the swing. End of story. You can speculate about core strength and the physics of the move ad nauseum, but viewing the video it’s so obvious that the rope stopped the swing. I suspect Jens posted this video and his rhetorical question to highlight that very thing... I guess it’s up to Dai to decide how much that impacts his ascent.
OffLine Al arud Arud
  2017-10-09 18:53:18    
So you want to know how he stops the swing? One word - CORE.
In practice most of you cannot relate at all to the topic you are so fiercely discussing. But in theory your assumptions become somehow indisputable facts. Shame on you and all those speculations that are destroying the spirit of the outdoor climbing.
As a "proof" I leave you this video:
Namely, at 2:44 min, Stefano Ghisolfi, stops a swing in an "impossible" way. The very same way as Dai. Note the rope between the last two quickdraws - looks as tight as the one from Dai's ascent. Look at the rope before the second to last QD - loose! Could it be the same with Dai? You don't know so stop theorizing but go and work on your core!
OffLine Kenny Walker
  2017-10-10 02:01:31    
Dude are you watching the same footage?! Ghisolfi had his knees bent and legs tucked right up to engage the core and lessen the swing. It was also a much less dynamic move. Dais body is completely straight and the swing just stops half way through. But yes, good advice, I will go work on my core!
OnLine Mike Kimmel
  2017-10-10 04:36:07    
They also jump very differently. Ondra makes the jump using two hands and a lot more force, Dai jumps with one. He is much shorter, much lighter, and clearly kicks the wall very hard with his foot before catching the next hold. All of that could make the difference with the jump.

Doesn't seem like you really are taking Luzan's advice, though - this very much feels like trolling for argument.