GO TO GLOBAL SITE   se es us fr za it
de ca au no
at br ru ch
gb pl nl sk
Home | News | Videos | Articles | Gallery | Crags | Gyms | Search - Tick List | Forum | Ranking | Blogs | Contact | New Member
Forum: GLOBAL / Editorial / Ethics on stick trad placement? Login in to contribute
Ethics on stick trad placement?
OffLine 8a.nu
  2018-11-02 00:00:00    
Placing gear on lead is what counts in trad climbing in order to make a valid ascent even on redpoint. This means sometimes a route is much harder and dangerous as you do not reach a placement from a good position. If you had reached just 10 cm further possibly you could have gotten a bomber solid nut placement but instead the only solution might be to either do a dead serious run-out or place the nut from bad holds, creating another crux.

In sport climbing, such situations are rare but you might end up in the same out of reach to place the quick draw on an onsight. The solution is then to carry a stiff quick draw with open gate and voila, problem fixed.

As trad ethics is pretty conservative, most probably the trad community would not give credit placing gear with a stick-clip or even using one of these 45 cm stiff dog bones quickdraws etc. But what if you just squeeze in the cables in the rubber normally stabilizing the lower carabiner. By doing so you could gain some 10- 20 cm, resulting in a safer and easier trad experience even if the objective difficulty remains the same.
Click to Enlarge Picture
OffLine Eric Thörn
  2018-11-02 10:37:35    
If ethics can disqualify an ascent because of using a a new kind of tool, then gear technology can't progress. Because all new gear that makes things easier to secure and climb would then be "cheating". In my opinion, ethics too strict is not productive to the sport of climbing.  If someone free-climbed  a hard trad-route with a new type of gear that makes it easier and safer to secure, then that is just good progress, not an invalid ascent.
OnLine Ari
  2018-11-02 12:27:11    
Jens, please make sure that everybody understands your idea correctly. Nobody should try to use your construction as a protection, because the nut is not connected to the quickdraw. (As far as i can see). It is only meant for placing the nut!
OffLine Adam Brink
  2018-11-02 13:49:11    
This is a debate for sport climbers. Every trad climber I know would simply climb up and place the gear.
OnLine Robert Kasper
  2018-11-02 15:27:34    
Dude, this is more or less how tito died.

Please have somebody recheck you Posts. I mean a trad climber does not need this post and a newbee gets confused. Jeeeeesus. Please
OffLine Philippe Vaucher
  2018-11-02 15:40:13    
Jens, please remove the photo.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2018-11-02 17:07:26    
The safety issue have been mentioned. I think it will be hard even for the conservative to say this idea is not valid and that goes probably also for using a very long stiff webbing like the Panic. However, if somebody would use a three meter long stick clip to place nuts in order to reduce difficulty and danger I do not think this would count as a valid trad ascent.
OffLine Jason Crank
  2018-11-02 19:52:45    
How do you feel about the tactics employed on Baron Greenback then?
OffLine Jason Crank
  2018-11-02 19:52:47    
How do you feel about the tactics employed on Baron Greenback then?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2018-11-02 20:26:37    
Please update me :)
OffLine Sebastian Peace
  2018-11-03 04:22:16    
Pete Whittaker 1st ascent Baron Greenback, E9/10 7a, Wimberry, UK.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2018-11-03 10:09:55    
If I understood it correctly, Pete was stick clipping a bolt and surely this is OK. On the other hand, it seems very strange that it was not bolted to the top and instead, basically, the belayer could let go of the rope at the top as he was so many meters above the bolt.
I have hard time understanding the logic of giving it a E-grade as it is liking grading a combination of a sport route and a solo route.
OffLine Ben Iseman
  2018-11-06 00:12:27    
Jens it isn't bolted to the top because it was bolted by cavers decades ago. The bolts just happen to be useful to protect the climb. Climbers do not place bolts on gritstone. As for the E-grade. It makes just as much sense as every other climb on grit where there might be good gear at a certain height and nothing after it.

As for this discussion. You are exploring a problem that really doesn't exist. The only thing that matters is that people are honest about their tactics. Your quickdraw mcgyver solution may be shared without the amended text. Maybe nothing will ever come of it but you certainly aren't helping anyone with this tip. People have been using coat hangers to make stiff draws forever. They can make the imagination leap to place gear out of reach if they really want to.
OffLine Steve
  2018-11-06 01:02:12    
So what if someone added bolts along the upper section of the route? Would it then be only "Severe" instead of "Extreme" and therefore less cool as a climb?
OffLine Sebastian Peace
  2018-11-06 05:22:05    
Mhh, why not use a rope that hangs from the top of the route (fixed with trad gear) where you can clip without having to bolt. Like a mega extended quickdraw. Ugly? Maybe, but it could make climbs possible that are deemed too dangerous with gritstone ethics.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2018-11-06 08:09:51    
So why did they nor chop the dangerous bolts?

It seems trad climbers very seldom are "honest" about their tactics. Sometimes it involves down climbing and having an escape rope that can be thrown from the top, or as you say creating stiff quickdraws. I do not think climbers would have reported if they did stick climb as my example and I do not think that would make any sense. I think such tactics would be included in the red point ethic definition.

My question relates to how long and how creative you are allowed to be without needing to be "honest" about it.
OffLine Ben Iseman
  2018-11-06 19:39:49    
They didn't chop the bolts out of pure opportunism. Hypocritical? Maybe. But they were placed by cavers, not climbers and the deed is done.

Where is this big problem of trad climbers not being honest about their tactics?

Your post makes no sense. You say the trad community would probably not accept an ascent as valid if they use a 45cm stiff draw but then say you can use your TITO solution for 10-20cm and no problem?

There is no grey area for what you can do before you need to be honest. You need to be honest. Stick clipping 1-2 bolts for safety on sport climbs is normal so rarely reported. For trad climbing anything that deviates from climbing from the bottom to top while placing gear should be mentioned.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2018-11-06 21:15:26    
I know several trad ascents where serious down climbing and escape rope from the top have been part of the tactics without being mentioned.

I am asking questions and do not have the answers and I think there is a grey zone which some guys take benefit of and neglects to “honest” about.
OffLine Sebastian Peace
  2018-11-06 21:15:46    
I think it's a bit unfair and maybe even a bit irreverent to call this "your TITO solution" because the circumstances are different, Jens added the warning to the news after the critique and I am sure he does not want anybody to die from using his method.
For some, this technique might come in handy someday, so thanks for sharing your idea Jens.
Honesty? Yes, totally, but I'd rather have somebody "cheat/lie" about their style on a route instead of dying. Of course this situation gets very ugly if you lie about the gear used and somebody dies because of trusting you but this is all just hypothetical.
Btw: This slightly reminds me of the technique Beth Rodden used on her very hard trad crack ("Meltdown" - sadly there is no public video, but as I remember she used tape to tape her gear to the harness for quicker acccess).
Edit: You can see it in Dosage V (bigupproductions)
OffLine Ben Iseman
  2018-11-06 23:09:12    
@jens "I know several trad ascents where serious down climbing and escape rope from the top have been part of the tactics without being mentioned."

So print some news!!!!

@Sebastian clearly Jens doesn't intend for anyone to get hurt. But no one needs this tip and its a flawed idea. What are people supposed to do when they have placed the nut that isn't actually clipped to the quickdraw further than they can reach to clip it back in? FAIL!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone who climbs on gear would come up with a solution that actually involved being attached to the nut. Clip nut to quickdraw. Tape stick along nut cable and quickdraw. Voila. Super easy. Safe.
OffLine Sebastian Peace
  2018-11-07 00:09:07    
Well, yea you are right but sometimes it's easier to clip a quickdraw than to place a nut. So yes, this is surely no climbing revolution but as I said it might come in handy in specific situations.
OffLine Corey Flynn
  2018-11-07 05:13:46    
Traditional ethics are a funny thing in the modern age of hard free climbing. Actually even as free climbing was evolving into what it is today there is always a gray area in what constitutes as a traditional free ascent. Ray Jardine yo-yo’d his way to the top of the Phoenix to “send” America’s first 5.13. Mark Hudon lead it clean on hexes a few days later only on nuts and hexes placing all gear on lead. Tony Yaniro sent the Grand Illusion not long after on pre placed gear creating, at the time, the hardest “ trad climb” in the country. Most free ascents on El Cap today utilize preplaced gear and pre hung draws. Basically anything goes as long as the ascensionist is honest about their tactics. Most hard trad climbs at the cutting edge today are either sport trad hybrids or well rehearsed headpoints tho there are still folks that employ a ground up style to hard trad climbing, some Belgians come to mind. It’s all fun and games until people take the “rules” too seriously.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2018-11-07 09:58:38    
@ Ben: As I know that different ethics apply in trad climbing and that it is quite common to do down climbing and to use escape rope, it would be totally wrong to just mention one or two guys not being "honest" with their tactics.

An example of a person being honest could be the film from the British scene from like 2003 how said that he had climbed up, placed trad gear, and the jumped down in order to always be allowed starting with the rope in the fixed gear :)
OffLine Mike C
  2018-11-07 18:40:09    
@Ben: If anyone goes so far as to use Jens suggestion, places a nut that's not connected to a draw further than they can reach, and only then realizes it, should probably not be climbing trad. I would not hold Jens responsible for that even without the added warning. Personal safety while leading on trad really has to be your own responsibility.