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La Grotta dei Colombi needs fanatic bolters
  2016-06-17 00:00:00    
La Grotta dei Colombi is located near Cala Gonone on Sardinia and is possibly the biggest climbing cave in Europe. The potential is 100 routes up to 50 meters overhanging and 100 meters long. The rock quality is superb and it is full of tufas and pockets and on the sides, more vertical rock and also some slabs. It is also possible to climb both during winter and summer. Until now, a team from Czech Republic by mainly Jan Kares, Slávek Dostál and Tomas Truhelka, who has helped us out with some further info, has put up ten routes.

"The outbreak of our bolting in Sardinia fully started in Chistmas 2008. And has never stopped... The tightly knitted relationship between us, bolting and Sardinia has so far resulted in approx. 2.300 bolts used to put up some 220 routes at 12 crags. The latest addition to the crag family is recently discovered Grotta di Colombi, which aspires to one of the greatest caves in Europe. All equipment and bolting steel have been paid for with old hard cash from mainly Jan’s pockets. Along with travel cost, accommodation and litres of doppios.

Forget sponsoring or contributions from locals, we never asked that to be a part of the deal. Somehow, however, this innocent hobby accelerated to dimensions no longer acceptable without help from outside. Should you feel you can help us at any way to develop many beautiful crags in Sardinia, please contact Jan at karesjan@gmail.com. Any help is greatly appreciated. There is abundance of bolting material and tools, but the manpower is what’s desperately needed.
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OffLine Ingmar de Vries
  2016-06-16 09:23:24    
Hi,
I have a question regarding amazing caves in Sardegna. I few years ago I climbed with some friends there and I remember there was a small area for which you needed to walk about an hour or something. It were 5 or 6 big caves in a row, all directly on the sea with a narrow beach. There were some routes bolted, but maybe 2 per cave and in the last caves none at all. I was wondering whether anybody here knows which caves I'm talking about and why they're not bolted more? Is the rock quality bad? I thought each cave had potential for many amazing routes!

Best
OffLine Robert Kasper
  2016-06-16 09:28:29    
what sardinia needs is more likely rebolting in Titanium. Nice to have a new cave and FA's is all that counts, but the old routes are in very bad condition! There will definitely be some accidents in the future
OffLine Nic Bar
  2016-06-16 10:48:00    
Hi, unfortunately I can't do much, but why not contact important locals like Maurizio Oviglia (you must know him for sure) or people like Klaas Willems who are bolting in Sardinia too? I'm sure they could help or introduce you to people who can help :)
OffLine Emanuele Pellizzari
  2016-06-16 11:55:32    
I am not super sure if it's ok that visiting climbers bolts caves like this. May be worth asking first if it's ok to bolt them. @Robert Kasper:  in an ideal world, Titanium should be used. It only comes in Glue ins, so in caves like this is a massive task to bolt it. But then a question arises: who the hell pay for it? Would you pay a ticket of 50 euro each time you go climbing there? Yes or no? This is what we area talking about.  Do not confuse the money you pay for the ferry, or rental cars, to what actually goes to the tourism back and what climbers leaves to local economy.
OffLine Tomas Truhelka
  2016-06-16 12:25:28    
The majority of crags we´ve bolted were recommended to us by locals. In case of Baunei we proposed the area which was then approved by a local authorityś guy responsible for a tourist development. Be frank, there is a massive grey area in whoś to decide where you can or cannot bolt...Titanium. Yes, we´ve even contemplated this material selection. Until you find out whatś the stuff worth. Not wanting to be ruthless and create a long-life product, selection of steel for marina environment was consulted with Fisher bonts & anchors pros. Apparently the grade of steel we use is sufficient for this type of agressive environment. Should you want to indulge in material specs discussion, I can contribute...Ok, the bottom line is that we go abroad to spend a greater part of holiday (don´t know about you guys, I only have 24 days...) bolting routes with our own material and equipment ( heavy to transport from Czech Republic), which is essential for YOUR benefit as climbers). I agree with suggestion to rebolt old routes, however that is something way beyond our means, not to mention that should be addressed to the author with ćopyright´.
OffLine Robert Kasper
  2016-06-16 12:33:43    
sure why not put mild steel first in the big cave but its just that many areas in sardinina need rebolting fast. Some bolts were totally rotten when i was there. but of course rebolting is less exciting than putting up a 100 m cave, i agree.
OffLine jorge will
  2016-06-16 12:59:21    
Bravo Robert,bolting is not a videogame!
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2016-06-16 13:21:46    
These guys are heroes for me and if anybody think rebolting is important in Sardinia, I suggest that the same person can try to orginize this important task. The guys rebolting are also heroes.

Of course the ones that want to develop new crags should not be hindered just because there are rosty bolts in other crags.
OffLine pbla4024
  2016-06-16 15:08:03    
Can you basejump it? No? Then it's much smaller than Ramirole :)
OffLine Tomas Truhelka
  2016-06-16 15:28:35    
Not sure what's about basejump, but there's a platform for bungee jumping at the arch crown :)
OffLine renets
  2016-06-16 16:20:04    
A huge (re)bolting thing is also happening at Ulassai: http://www.climbingulassai.com. 
OffLine Robert Kasper
  2016-06-16 17:40:23    
quite a few friends of mine have been to sardinia last year. They all came back and said the would not go again because of the bolts. Thats why this rebolting came to my head when i saw these news. But lets agree that everybody that can tie his shoelaces all by himself is a fucking hero!! ;-)
OffLine Tomas Truhelka
  2016-06-16 19:53:50    
Hey Robert, have you ever bolted anything yourself? Don´t bother, I know the answer... What I don´t know is why youŕe comparing apples with pears. We really are not responsible for anyone elses work from the past...Perhaps you could mention the areas you or friends visited and found in such desolated state so locals can do something with it?
OffLine dreamingof8a
  2016-06-16 20:11:00    
@Ingmar de Vries, I think you may be talking about Cala Luna? Camped there once, it was beautiful but the climbing was not so great, very polished as far as I remember ....
OffLine stambecco
  2016-06-16 20:43:56    
@ingemar: It could have been Cala Sisine (If not cala Luna as dreamingof8a said) @tomas: when do you think to go there next time?
OffLine Tomas Truhelka
  2016-06-16 21:01:18    
To stambecco: Jan is going there mid July with few people. Ideal bolting time as it's too hot to climb :) fancy joining them? Contact Jan directly via email provided in the article.
OffLine Emanuele Pellizzari
  2016-06-16 21:39:37    
I repeat it:@Robert Kasper:  in an ideal world, Titanium should be used. It only comes in Glue ins, so in caves like this is a massive task to bolt it. But then a question arises: who the hell pay for it? Would you pay a ticket of 50 euro each time you go climbing there (for a week)? Yes or no? This is what we area talking about. 
OffLine Robert Kasper
  2016-06-16 22:27:15    
how do you know i dont bolt? well i dont do FA's but i rebolt old routes at my home. it gives me great joy and of course next time i go to sardinia it will bring a driller. the area was cala gonone and i think it was the route el chorro. i think the even conncted two generations of rusted bolts to have some security. cheers
OffLine Philippe Vaucher
  2016-06-17 08:52:29    
A lot of areas near the sea bolted with steel needs rebolting every 2-10 years because of corrosion due to salt, often invisible to the eye. Bolts affected can break at ~70 kg of charge. More informations at  https://www.mountainproject.com/v/protect-ya-neck-aka-bad-bolts-in-sardinia/110604211
OffLine Stefano Primiero
  2016-06-17 09:59:39    
In my opinion, if one is not willing to or can not afford bolts that are save for more than a few years (Titanium in marine environments), you should not touch the rock at all. I mean it´s nice and important to have new routes and all, but with the sea nearby I think that is the only long term option. Quality is more important than pure quantity. In Thailand there was the same discussion years ago...
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2016-06-17 10:18:01    
I totally agree but surely this do not mean that Titanium must be used originally.
OffLine Philippe Vaucher
  2016-06-17 10:51:07    
Jens, can you explain what you mean? Right now it does not make sense... this is how it looks: <Stefano> bolts needs to last more than a few years (titanium bolts are needed) <Jens> I agree, but no need for titanium.
OffLine Marcin Kantecki
  2016-06-17 11:15:15    
Glue in bolts are almost imposible to fix on lead. And I think most of new project in Colombi has to be done ground up.Maybe is OK to do new projects on steel expansion bolts and after couple years rebolt  it with glue in ( titanium or whatever)
OffLine 9b
  2016-06-17 12:44:21    
Yan an heroe ? http://novebi.ning.com/profiles/blogs/yan-kares-a-bolting-hero
OffLine Steve
  2016-06-17 13:37:17    
I also think it would be nice to have some bolting regulations in marine areas or other special environments. For example, making titanium mandatory would be really nice as this is pretty much the only known long-term safe thing in such environments. @ Emanuelle: In my opinion, the bolter should pay for the equipment. Maybe sponsoring from some companies or (if there is) a local community is possible. Otherwise, if the bolter cannot afford it, he/she shouldn't do it and instead leave it to someone else. If every bolter just creates one or two routes instead of 10 or 20, this may even increase the quality of the routes as the people will choose the lines more carefully. @ ground-up bolting: It should be fine to bolt a route ground-up using (cheap) expansion bolts and then rebolt the route with titanium rightaway. Having said this, I cannot agree with Jan Kares' statement in the article: " Forget
sponsoring or contributions from locals, we never asked that to be a
part of the deal. Somehow, however, this innocent hobby accelerated to
dimensions no longer acceptable without help from outside. Should you
feel you can help us at any way to develop many beautiful crags in
Sardinia, please contact Jan at karesjan@gmail.com. Any help is greatly
appreciated. There is abundance of bolting material and tools, but the
manpower is what’s desperately needed." I do not think, there exists a deadline for when a crag should be fully bolted. It's completely fine to have some patience and let it grow slowly. So, Jan, why do you think there's actually a rush in bolting the cave? And, what hasn't been adressed, yet, despite the whole discussion: Is the bolting material you have good? I.e., is it titanium? Otherwise, if is is unsuitable material, there might be a death-line and I think this is what nobody wants. ;)
OnLine Tomasz Ratajczak
  2016-06-17 14:43:37    
Could the PLX steel by Fixe be a solution? I have no experience of it but it is marchandised as almost as good as titanium but for the fraction of the price. http://techrock.es/en/news/plx-hcr-anchors-2016
OffLine Tomas Truhelka
  2016-06-17 16:02:29    
To Steve: Read and think again about what you wrote, take time to, sleep on it. Then hopefully it might click and you'll delete your comment...
OffLine Steve
  2016-06-17 16:14:04    
I see absolutely no reason why I should retract my opinion. But feel free to tell me yours.
OffLine Tomas Truhelka
  2016-06-17 17:32:41    
Steve, i pretty much agree with all you said - provided you live on Mars. Unfortunately we live on Earth where huge effort gets widely underappreciated and commented on by people with no practical experience. I trust you'll visit Sardinia and enjoy climbing some of our routes. Can recommed few ;)
OffLine Sune Hermit
  2016-06-17 18:24:45    
I climbed in Cala Gonone area a few years ago and must say it's the most dangerous bolts I have encountered. Cala Luna was especially scary. I have climbed on ses cliff elsewhere, on Sicily and Kalymnos without seeing such rusty bolts there.
OffLine Herman Claeys
  2016-06-17 18:40:39    
I'm with Steve: He adresses  an important issue : are the new routes bolted with titanium yes or no? this valid question has nothing to do with (the lack  off) appreciation whatsoever H.
OffLine Tomas Truhelka
  2016-06-17 19:02:40    
http://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/climbing/reequipping-with-marine-gear-in-sardinia-by-louis-piguet.htmlHerman, please read the above article. Louise mentions there that the steel he's used was not titanium. Nor was ours i must confess. Do you think he's done bodge job?
OffLine Herman Claeys
  2016-06-17 19:52:44    
As far as i know, i never implied somebody/anybody  has done a bodje job. Some of us are  just curius to know from which material the "abundance load of material" is made of. As mentioned a couple of times in this thread, bolting is a big effort so bolts should last . The raumer "marin line" seems to be quiet adequate (i didn't read the 15 page article about corrossion thoroughly) and probably  is the next best thing to titanium, Best regards
OffLine Jan Zapal
  2016-06-17 22:11:58    
Every time I go climbing, I am benefiting from (re)bolting effort of someone else. And I always wish there was a simple voluntary means to contribute few euro to this effort. Where it works, e.g. Margalef via cheaply-produced on-site-sold climbing guide, it does thanks to locals.
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2016-06-17 22:35:07    
@ Steve: Why do you not think it is OK to first use expansive expansion bolts that 25 years later can be changed to Titanium. What you suggest seems really illogical. "It should be fine to bolt a route ground-up using (cheap) expansion bolts and then rebolt the route with titanium rightaway."
OffLine Herman
  2016-06-17 23:51:25    
"rightaway" as in "tomorrow" not "25 years"
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2016-06-17 23:59:37    
Exactly...that is what makes it so illogical. Why should the bolter first place a cheap expansion bolt that should be removed "tomorrow" when he can place an expensive one that could be removed in 25 years?
OffLine Steve
  2016-06-18 03:54:10    
Well, what I'm having in mind, is the extreme case of Thailand. There, the first bolts did not last that long at all. If the material is guaranteed to last 25 years, it might be ok, as long as someone remembers to rebolt it. The main problem there is, that it is not possible to see the degree of corrosion from the outside. The bolt can look perfect from outside but not be able to resist 70 kg weight or less. As far as I know, similar issues occured in various areas in Greece. Therefore, I think it is important to emphasize the importance of suitable material in special (marine) environments. Titanium is as far as I know guaranteed to resist corrosion, but other materials, as others mentioned above, may exist as well. My point concerning the ground up ascent implicitly refers to the fact that titanium bolts are placed as glue-ins. Since glued bolts cannot be put under weight rightaway, as the glue requires some time to dry, a ground-up ascent is not possible with them. Hence, the usage of expansion bolts is a possible workaround. The replacement with titanium bolts is then done to create a long-lasting safe climbing route. However, if there exist expansion bolts that are suitable for that environment (in particular in a way that advanced corrosion can be seen from the outside), then it may be ok to use those, too. As for Tomas Truhelka's comments: It's not about underappreciating the bolting effort. I know how much work it is to bolt a route. But I also know that most people do it because they enjoy doing this pioneering work for themselves. When you bolt a route, you have the freedom of choosing a line in the rock that promises a beautiful climb. Also,  you achieve honour by having your name being written in the next guide book, ideally. Besides that, I think it is not necessary to expect/rely on additional appreciation. In particular, I am personally skeptical about "mass-bolting". I'm totally not saying that Jan Kares' effort might be of low quality - absolutely not -, but especially in mediterranean countries I have seen many poorly equipped routes, ranging from bad material over poor cement-rock binding to bad positioning of the holds, i.e. bad clipping positions. Therefore, I felt it was necessary to express my skepticism, in particular since we learned from Thailand and do not need to repeat it.
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2016-06-18 07:53:27    
Yesterday I started rebolting two 25 year old routes in Sweden. Next to them, 23 year old and of a better quality did look OK. The expansion bolts we use today are even so better than the 23 year old bolts and I will start testing another fourth upgraded bolts this autumn. They might last 100 years in a cave like Colombi. Most of us know the situation in Thailand but if UIAA think it is OK to use expansion bolts in a cave like Colombi it feels strange that you should say they are now allowed just because it seems you do not know the progress with bolts. It is good the read that you know have changed your mind.  
OffLine Tomas Truhelka
  2016-06-18 10:05:38    
To Steve & Herman: stainless steel of grade A4 has been used for bolting in the cave. A4 grades are reserved for use in highly caustic environment where improved resistance to pitting corrosion is required,i.e marine & exhausts.
OffLine Emanuele Pellizzari
  2016-06-19 11:11:05    
Some of you guys, is making bit of confusion.First, Sardinia rates very low in GDP in Europe, not only Italy, most of "locals" does not have the money to pay for bolts (stainless or titanium).Second: who pays for them? As an example I asked twice @jasper a question, but he did not reply. Locals, visitors, government, local clubs if they exist?Third: a very serious problem seen anywhere, is the tourist that comes, piss on a piece of rock to mark his territory, and add a new route. Nobody will maintain it. After a while it becomes dangerous and on forums and web sites anywhere, they start to claim that the whole are is unsafe. This is new colonialism. This is bullshit.Fourth: I can name  few hundred location anywhere in the world that once bolted, the become deserted after a while. Should that have been bolted in Titanium since day-one? I say "NO".  It's a waste of money BETTER to be used in places where actually frequentation is high. This is why climbers should donate money to locals that knows better where people climbs.Fifth: back to the topic. On the guidebook of Maurizio Oviglia is clearly written that even the less respectful local climbers avoided to bolt the more fragile stalactites of that cave. The place is SIC (protected) and can lead to the closure of the whole area, not only the cave. If you place a video online that you  are bolting a stalactites  (fact actually happened) you can get law action against you by our beloved government and get a condemn by a judge.So. there and anywhere, before "visitors climbers" start to add bolts anywhere they should ask VERY carefully if they DO can. Do not expect "locals", even if they are "poor", leave such places alone without a reason. Once bolters will go back to their country, the problems will stay where they were created.Sixth: Titanium is one material that resist corrosion well. There are many more. 1.4529 for example and it also come in bolts. Now it's fashionable to talk about titanium, but it's not the sole one material. @Steve. The number of people that can bolt well is limited. Those of them with unlimited budget is even lower. Of course there are people with money that can place bolts, but this does not mean they can bolt well. Sure, with bolts inlace is easier to rebolt, but rock should be preserved.
OffLine rai
  2016-06-20 22:13:29    
Well said Emanuele...
OffLine Robert Kasper
  2016-06-20 22:39:08    
well here are my aswers: Who should pay?  The bolter should pay. Its a privlege to climb and bolt. 95 % of the worlds populations do not have these privilege, so dont talk about cost. If you don't want to pay, then well go to the classic crags or go to the gym. But i would be the first to pay a climbers tax. In sardinia or anywhere else. I pay back to the community by rebolting and installing fixed gear but i dont expect anybody to reimburse me A lot of routes get deserted after the FA. True, but why then leave the old popular routes in such bad condition and spend all the money on a huge cave that acually only very few visitors of sadinia even care? Its a kind of a consume and trash mentality. The communities in sadinia and corsica are very small and as soon as the strong locals are done, the place gets deserted. most likely not everything can be maintained. 230 routes have been put up by jares's team. I know gluing is not possible for FA's, but why not make 100 FA's and rebolt another 100? And lastly Ti is not the only material. But everything (!!!) tested so far in harsh environment failed after 10-15 years. Thats just a fact. Guess a route has a lifetime of around 40 years. Rebolt in Stainless four time are about 1.5 time in Ti. So Ti is cheaper in the end. And lastly, the new material from techrock sounds promising. But we will see after 15 year if it lives up to the marketing.
OffLine Emanuele Pellizzari
  2016-06-21 08:51:14    
"But i would be the first to pay a climbers tax" Good to know, but you are a in the tiniest minority of the climbing population. I take to the liberty to copy and paste what I wrote: " Third: a very serious problem seen anywhere, is the tourist that comes, piss on a piece of rock to mark his territory, and add a new route. Nobody will maintain it. After a while it becomes dangerous and on forums and web sites anywhere, they start to claim that the whole are is unsafe. This is new colonialism. This is bullshit" "Sixth: Titanium is one material that resist corrosion well. There are many more. 1.4529 for example and it also come in bolts. Now it's fashionable to talk about titanium, but it's not the sole one material." It's not actually cheaper Titanium, its one choice for long term bolting, assuming that the place is not going toe deserted quickly so it does not matter even if it's bolted or not. Do you have any info, real info not guess, of one 1,4529 anchor failing? If yes, when and where? Thanks E
OffLine Tomas Truhelka
  2016-06-21 11:53:34    
Big up to all of you guys who's contacted Jan so far and want to join and help!
OffLine Robert Kasper
  2016-06-21 14:22:01    
hmm. was my last comment deleted or did i not submit it ??? maybe 1.4529 or techrock's  HCR PLX would do the job and i have no informationa about failed bolts made of these materials. But the same has been said about V4A or 316L and it failed miserably after very short time. I personally am 100 % sure that most medieterranian seeside tourist cliffs will have to switch to Ti within 15-20 years. We will see how it turns out. I a curious of course case closed
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2016-06-21 15:03:19    
Could you please give examples of When 316 have failed miserably in short time in Europe. In sweden we have almost No problems even with 304 after 20 years.
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2016-06-21 15:03:27    
Could you please give examples of When 316 have failed miserably in short time in Europe. In sweden we have almost No problems even with 304 after 20 years.
OffLine Robert Kasper
  2016-06-21 15:59:37    
Are you saying that all works well in southern europe? well, just read the above stated articles. or maybe the article just released by the UIAA. http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/Safety/Anchors/UIAA-WARNING-ABOUT-CLIMBING-ANCHORS-FAILURES.pdf I know 8a.nu disliked the above article in defense of kalymnos but this just seems to be the case here. sweden lacks many of the cirtical factors to scc. Lower temperature, more frequent rainshowers, rock composition (less magnesium or calcium). Of course sweden is mostly fine. Know your facts.
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2016-06-21 16:14:53    
Please report one crag where 316 bolts have failed miserably in short time?
OffLine Bruno Silva
  2016-06-21 19:25:06    
In Portugal several bolts in A2 (304) have failed in short time. A huge effort is being done to rebolt with Ti. You can see the description of the problem here:http://climbingpt.com/titan-project/locations/http://climbingpt.com/titan-project/the-problem/ You also can donate some money for the rebolting :)
OffLine Robert Kasper
  2016-06-21 20:50:12    
whatever jens... All stainless steels between 5-20 % nickel are suscpetible to scc. I just found cetrified Titanium bolts for 9 Euro the piece. 316 bolt and hanger cost around 10 on barrarbes. So 316 is more expensive than titanium. Ha Ha http://www.titanclimbing.com/
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2016-06-21 21:04:47    
So you just made it up saying that 316 bolts have failed miserably?

Sure Titanium seems much better but it is impossibly to use them in a roof without old bolts.
OffLine 9b
  2016-06-21 23:08:17    
An option to obtain legal authorization to bolt NEW routes around Cala Gonone: http://novebi.ning.com/profiles/blogs/an-option-to-obtain-legal-authorization-to-bolt-new-routes-around
OffLine Philippe Vaucher
  2016-06-22 17:33:40    
@Jens: http://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1036/ML103620293.pdf http://www.ssina.com/corrosion/stress-corrosion-cracking.html Both show SCC happening for 316.
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2016-06-22 20:39:48    
Sure but in which crags have it happened?
OffLine Emanuele Pellizzari
  2016-06-23 08:10:35    
@ Robert Kasper ...

Mmmhhh: I sell well below 3 euro bolt plus anchors
in A4 316L 1,4404. It's about one third of titanium and with titanium you need
also glue.  So about ¼ the price.

You wrote "But
the same has been said about V4A or 316L and it failed miserably after very
short time." : Have you evidence that the  glue is
NOT miserably failing without short term? If yes, can you post the link.

What is “short time”?
Of course titanium is a better choice if you can
afford it, and if you trust glue (which I do not).

Of course SS steel (depends on the kind)
may/might have some issues in some areas.

Of course one day everything will have to be
rebolted: think of Spain with a few million bolts zinc plated wiating for
somebody to replace.

Of course some Mediterrean costal area will have
to be rebolted with Titanium, but then a cost calculation comparison arise if the
money that climbing brings to the local ara is enought to pay for the cost of
re-bolting and maintainance.

So, its not easy.

On the press release that you wrote about from
UIAA , you just forgot the main and most important part of it: “climbers so far
had a free ride and now they start need paying for climbing”. So, think twice
before you mention this press release: may be some city  council    and landloweners
may read it, and execute what they wrote.
OffLine Robert Kasper
  2016-06-23 16:12:34    
3 euros bolt and hanger. Wow thats cheap. We might even come to business with this prices. There is a lot of rebolting to do in switzerland. In the gorge du tarn the rebolting of about 300 routes was payed fully by the government or the ffme because they saw that the climber bring quite some money during the off-season. I think climbing has the same potential in sardinia and might be worth an investment. We will see how the financing of about 2 million bolts in the mediterranean will work out. With bad finances in the south (spain, greece, italy...) we might see a climbers tax beeing imposed by local authorities. If it goes 100 % to rebolting i would be totally fine with this. But yes, most climbers easily spend 120 euros on shoes but are too cheap to leave a single fixed draw somewhere. Quite sometimes i feel s bit ashamed by my own sportmen. I am curious how the 316L vs titanium battle works out! we might discuss again in 15 years. so i think i am out of this here.
OffLine Piotr Bunsch
  2016-06-28 23:09:25    
Just watch your gear while bolting! I was stolen a backpack full of shiny gear a few years ago in Sardinia. I guess some of my quickdraws are dangling in those amazing caves.