Oliana/Margalef = Kalymnos grading

Patrick Johnson  ; Are you suggesting that Margalef and Oliana seems to be one of the best crags in the world only because it's supposedly soft ratings? ...uhmm in the seventies was Yosemite then the eighties was Verdon,Buoux,..the fact that the hot spot (for free climbing) keeps changing from one generation to the next has little to do with soft ratings i would say and if it turns to be reason behind now, doesn't speak very well of this generation's spirit. (instead of complaining about the soft blah,blah to adjust to the rest of the world, move on to the authentically places around if such a thing exist,and ignore the softers)

Ha, ha, ha... "Arm Chair Climbers" speculating to downgrade routes having not even been at the bottom of the crag.

To correctly downgrade routes (and boulders for that matter) you have to be objective. To stay objective you can not be influenced by the route , so pr definition : To downgrade routes correctly you must not climb them or look at them. It's best to not even be in the same country, ever.... Loking at pictures and videos will of course influence you, so you disqualify to be an objective downgrader by doing so. 

A0 Climber  ; Yes, someones seem to be in a crusade against some spanish crags argueing about the softness of the routes there and even in some routes can be truth (like in many countries) the rest it's quite comparable (bearing in mind this will never be an exact science), but i beguining to think that the reason behind it's in another level (pun intented)

@ Idar: I like your comment that "independent" persons can comment a grade. There are many reasons why a person who has done a boulder would not suggest a down grade as it will degrade the performance and further more, a down grade will always make some upset. Over the years, I have received 100s of comments regarding suggested down grades by climbers who do not want to officially make such a suggestion as it often creates a bad vibe. Lately, many hard core guys have told me that in general, the grades around Lleida but especially in Oliana and Margalef are at least one grade softer compared to the rest of the world. I regret to have speculated about down gradings directly in the news as it has created a bad vibe. Regarding what Patrick saying "I do not have the guts to speak out", he is perfectly correct. In the long run, this will be sorted out sooner or later anyhow. However, as you can understand it is kind of frustrating to report an inflated grade for someone who at the same time told me that the grades are not correct.   Grades are personal and because of this not important :)

It makes no sense to agree that you have not the guts to talk about downgrade but on the other hand you quote “in Oliana and Margalef are at least one grade softer compared to the rest of the world.” By the way, how can you say that you reported inflated grades despite the climber told you the grade was not correct?  This all sounds like not being veracity at all. 

@ A0: " many hard core guys have told me that in general, the grades around Lleida but especially in Oliana and Margalef are at least one grade softer compared to the rest of the world." It seems you missed out, "many hard core guys...". It is also a big difference between speculating something in the news (which was wrong), for which I have been criticized, and to speculate in the forum as a personal comment. Regarding inflated grades, I base the news on what is recorded in the 8a scorecard. Several persons have said that they do not want to be the first person to suggest a down grade even if it is just a personal grade. However, in some few cases I have suggested them to always report personal grades.

I did not miss the point at all. I did not write "you said" but "you quoted" ;-)  Nevertheless, you come to mean...  I do not talk about white cars, but all these guys say that white cars are bla, bla, bla. Does it make any sense?

@Idar: Stellar comment! The irony is sooo clear, yet it seems Jens didn't get it. LOL

depending on the route... what about demencia senil or FRFM, llamps i trons,etc etc... i don't think they are soft at all...

"Is there a conversion table between Oliana grading and French grading?" Thanks Jens for your comments but I think it is time for you to speak out. It is just so obvious by looking at all the recent Oliana sends that in general the grades are wrong and the funny thing is that it seems to be mainly Sharma routes.

Moroni comments the famous 8c+, Mind Control -everybody knows it's only 8c...

@Idar: Stellar comment! The irony is sooo clear, yet it seems Jens didn't get it. LOL I'm sure it is just Jens and the fact that his first language is not english ... but yes, it is very funny when someone makes an obviously sarcastic comment that is really funny and someone else seems to think he was serious ... :) we are all armchair climbers to a degree and Jens is one of the best ...

Which Sharma routes are over-graded, and what is their correct grade? 

Patrick, I suggest you go to Oliana and Margalef, send all the Sharma routes there since you seem to be pretty focused on those and then comment...but bring a video crew and yes, we´re talking uncut footage...until you´ve done that, cut the crap...

Hi Christian,  A thumb up for you.

I must say I do not understand why you do not think it is possible to specualate about grades based on statistics. If I have several friends who go to Kalymnos and they all come back with several personal best, I think this is a good indication that those routes are easier graded. Several years ago, I said that the boulder grades in Switzerland seemed to be very soft graded as almost everyone who did go there made a personal best. It was just a very simple conclusion and now, in general, most of the 8A and above have been down graded. @ John: At this point, Mind Control must be subject of being down graded especially since Gabri Moroni said, " everybody knows it's only 8c... " The problem is of course that it is very hard to be the first one to spit it out since it has been confirmed like 20 times. Grades are personal and therefore they are less important. Nalle Hukkataival published some very interesting thoughts some years ago "I think there are people who are in certain situations qualified to state their opinion about a grade, without necessarily completing a climb."

totally agree with Jens (and the others who think you don't have to climb a route to have some doubts about the grade). this is common sense, simple logic - you don't even need to be a climber to see this - the only thing you need is a working neocortex. If a number of climbers who climb X go to kalymnos/some spanish crags for a week or two and come back with a lot of X+s, then the answer is obvious, isn't it?

Thanks Batu, very much appreciated as there are many climbers who actually have not understood that simple logic. :)

Waste of time