Bolt responibility

User Deactivated

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Ok, let's try something else than grades and numbers: Who is responsible for all the bolts we are placing? I've been in contact with a landowner in an access matter and he is worried that he might be held responsible should there be an accident due to failed bolts at a crag on his land. Yes I know, most climbers consider themselves responsible for their own safety, but with the increasing number of climbers, and with many of them coming from the safe and regulated indoor walls, who can tell what will happen if there should be a bolt related accident? Even if the climbers consider themselves responsible, who knows how a climber's family would react if there should be a lethal accident due to failed bolts? Maybe they would try to hold someone else respnosible for the accident? In my particular case the bolts were placed in the late 80's without the landowner's permission, which could indicate that the climbers are responsible themselves. But the landowner is reluctant to give permission to bolt replacing (and to permit climbing at all), thinking that his permission will make him responsible. Does anyone here have any experience in this field? Has there been any legal cases where this question has been raised and possibly solved?

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Pascal Heger

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The legal aspect of this depends on the countries legislation!. So, generally speaking it can't be generalised ;-) The land-owner might be able to reduce liability (if liable at all) by putting signs up, warning people of the dangers. But again, this depends on the countries legislation. A good example are the ridiculous liability waivers that need to be signed in the US when climbing at the gym. These would not hold in a Dutch court. The climbing gym cannot waive their responsibility even if the climber has signed this / agreed to take full responsibility for their actions.

Jens Larssen

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I guess in an indoor gym, the owner would be responsible if the bolt brake and then he would go to the producers. I also guess, many gym owners have info - You are climbing on your own risk! I have put up 1000+ bolts and I think, using stainless steal on granite, that the main problem is loose hangers. I guess, if loose hangers would be a legal case, it would be considered as the responsibilty of the climber also in USA I think. When it come to an old bolt braking or are ripped out I am also convinced that in Sweden it would be the climbers responsibility. When a local club have taken the authority to decide where bolts can be placed and have started to replace bolts, like in Göteborg, I do think that they would have been held responsible if an old bolt did break.

User Deactivated

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@ Pascal: Of course it depends on the country's own legislation. Nevertheless I think it would be interesting to hear what has been concluded in other countries. @ Jens: Of course in an indoor gym the owner is responsible. In Sweden the authorized gyms also have an insurance covering this I believe. And they are running a business and make money out of it so it's not the same thing as outdoor climbing. Concerning outdoor climbing, what makes you convinced that the climber would be legally responsible? And are you saying that the bolting committees or the local clubs (like the ones in Gothenburg and Stockholm) would be held responsible for the bolts? Even the ones that they did not place, meaning that it's the club's responsibility to change the old bolts? If that would be the case, do you think that the clubs and the bolting committees are aware of that? And Jens, are you expressing your opinion or your knowledge? No offense but I'm not so interested in opinions here.

Jens Larssen

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@ Jonas: If you would like to learn something I do not think it is a good act to say that you are only looking for knowledge. This is a delicate matter and an open forum so I think we can all learn from opinions. Regarding your question concerning the local bolting committees, surely you know that I can only express my opinion. In Göteborg, the local club have authorised at least 90 % of the bolts and, Yes, I think by doing so and also have rebolting on their agenda, they could hold responsible if something went wrong. I do think this was reason why they actually took some down at Aspen (after that accident, which had nothing to do with bolts.) I do not think they are aware of that or I can say this is my knowledge.