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Open forum

Flash or not

So, here's a question. If you have climbed the stand start to a problem, and later on your first attempt at the sit you send it first go, is that a flash. An example being Dragonfly at hueco tanks. It has a V5 stand and a V9 sit. What are the rules on that?
First, there are no rules, just opinions that may differ from climber to climber. In the yearbook ethics we have written that you may do something like this for variation that differs a lot, i.e. you have climbed a 7a start and then you would like to do it again with the 8a variation. In this caseI thinkit is valid. V5 to V9 is a great difference in difficulty and I do not know have many moves are added. I mean if we are talking a 10 move roof start that goes in to the V9 problem, I guess it couldbe considered a flash but otherwise I am skeptical. However, I may change my mind and you and others may have other (more logical) opinions.
with dragonfly, i would probably count it as a flash since the obvious hard climbing is in the bottom and no one really falls in the end. but as jens said there are no clear rules.. for example, kevin jorgeson did the high start to disaphanous sea V12 which is V5, then did it first go from the sit, but still didnt count it as a flash. it all depends on your ethics and what you think is right..
That would only count as a flash if you REALLY REALLY need the points on your 8a.nu scorecard!! Otherwise, sorry, standard rules apply which state that if you've tried the moves on a route then it's not a flash!!!
I agree with Jason, it's not flash...because you have already climbed in it...
No, it's not a points thing.  I was just wondering.  I put them in as Redpoints anyway. But I don't see anything wrong with putting it as a flash if the sit or variation is a totally different problem.  Kevin flashed diaphanous in my book.  What if you flashed the stand. You never fell.  How is this different from downclimbing to the ground on a sport or trad route. Plenty of people even count that as onsight.
The rule for flash is : climbing a route/boulder only with informations about it (video, pictures, advices, etc etc... or flashed by someone from the ground), but without having tried or climb one part of it ! It is like this in France. If you have climbed before the last easy part of any route/boulder... It can not be flash !
In the 8a yearbook, 8a has stated that it is not OK to downclimb if you do it in order to save the onsight or if it is done in order to organize pre-clipped carabiners. Climbing is a sport that goes upwards. Like 10 years ago it was kind of popular to downclimb as many as possible. I have seen from the eleventh carabiner. For me this is stupid as also a British climber claiming that you do not have to downclimb, it is also OK, to jump from the fourth carabiner and then you can always start with four pre-clipped.
I agree with Jason also. Robert Khatchatrian.