Anorexia is good for climbing!!

im climbing 7a+ now with a bmi of almost 29.....having a 7b project right now. i dont like  steep routes :D. dropping muscles is never smart. the body is not working like a calculator. how can you drop muscles if you use them? you wont lose muscles if you work out and have a mild caloric restriction (-500 from what you normaly need to maintain weight) body will drop fat. the fastest way to lose muscles is not use them at all and dont eat. you will feel like shit and your performance will reduce below the level you are now this is what makes anorexia nervosa.high caloric restriction. dont drop muscles. get your bodyfat to a good level to 8-10%and focus on climbing. your hormone system and your whole body will thank you if you dont starve. i formyself like the challenge of getting bigger - building more muscle + climbing better :)

@Frans A: I respect your approach. Of course I don't know about your physique (fat%, muscle% etc), but I am convinced that if you would stop building all that extra muscle, you would climb way harder :) I don't know if you think 7a+ or 7c is 'hard' climbing, but I certainly don't ;)

@Franz A: And it is very possible to lose muscle tissue while using it when on a caloric restriction. This has been proven multiple times.

with a proper diet with a mild caloric restriction +  high protein intake + workout you nearly wont lose any muscles, at least the ones you use at climbing, (for the upper body all muscles that pull and lower body all muscles that push) of course you can always go on a improper diet as i said, but its not recommanded. and 6% is too low for keeping.

@Armand: I think I have the same problem as you (fairly heavy body, and big legs; my normal body weight before climbing was 76kg (1.75m)) until age 22. When I started climbing and getting psyched for hard routes, I dropped quite a lot of weight. When climbing my firsts 8a’s, they felt doable (or actually red point) when I was 66kg or lower, and on the other hand, when one day an 8a felt very hard, I was at 68 or higher. Later, I was able to climb 8b (with many many days) with a weight of 65. The lowest I ever got was 60kg (definitely loosing muscle mass, both lower and upper body). At that weight I remember trying a new 8b, and the first day doing all the moves and some sequences even if I had to find the beta myself. Later I tried it again with 63kg, and felt way harder (took me 3 sessions of learning with 63kg to get the same feelings as the first session with 60). So, I’d say that for me the benefits of weighting less are bigger than the negative effects of loosing upper body muscle mass (at least down from 75kg to 60 for 1.75m). Later I put on a lot of weight (up to 78kg), and by no means I could climb as hard as before! Nonetheless, my first 7c+ I climbed with 70kg and around 8 sessions, while now I’ve been able to climb 7c+ with 75kg and 3 sessions, so I guess that finger strength gain during this period has also happened. So I’d say that for climbing hard you both need to get light and train finger strength. In my case, 1.75m tall, down to 60kg and didn’t feel weaker climbing, the opposite, always the lighter the stronger (just a little bit weaker when walking (used to have big legs, but with 60 they were skinny!)). Now I am with 73kg, but I feel psyched to get to lower 60’s to see what happens.

@Joan: Thanks for your reply. I hereby officially claim you as my research object ;) Good to hear about someone who has actually been there and experienced the difference first hand. Motivating. I'm very curious about a few things though... How did you feel at 60-65kgs? Did you get ill more often, feel weak, feel tired? Any loss of concentration? Or did you feel better instead of worse? Or did you perhaps feel no difference at al?? (outside of climbing I mean) And was the high BMI you had/have due to a high fat%, or mainly because of muscle? Because mine is mainly because of muscle. And one last question: the muscles in your legs, after you lost them, did they come back or did they stay skinny?? :D Cheers!

At 60-65 I felt great both climbing and outside of climbing. Didn't get ill more often (I ate lots of fish, vegetables, and fruits), felt weak only on my legs, not tired, possibly felt a little more difficult to concentrate. Also was feeling cold when the rest of the people was ok. My high BMI was/is mainly due because of muscle. I have no data about before, but 2 months ago with 76kg I measured my body fat (electric impedance) and it was 12% (of course they say it is subject to errors). Anyways, there is no way for me to get down to 60 by loosing only fat. When I was 60 all my body was more skinny: legs, arms, shoulders, ... Getting back to 75 has brought me big arms, but also big legs (muscles in my legs have come back unfortunately), and the global output for sure is not being able to climb so hard.

Dr. 8a was talking about the loosing local muscle mass thing..  so i would ask him for some details about how it can be done proper.   And if you want to test something crazy for me..heh.. I've been thinking about dehydration, and if you can gain more in strength than you loose in performance because of the dehydration. Been reading a lot about this lately as i`m writing by bachelor about weight cutting in fighting, and i think maybe you can gain more than you loose up to one point.. And i think bouldering not sport. Like you loose more of the endurance, because of low blood volume, but the strength isn't that bad..  say you loose 2 kg in water, and loose 5-10% strength or something.. what is best? Would be cool to do a dead hang or pull up test or something just to see..  Speculation; maybe you can have more muscle fibers, but cut the water in between so you get a more compact muscle?? (last bit is from the ass) and i def. don't recommend this shit..  but as a experiment it would be cool to see some numbers. 

yeah better not recommend this shit w/o medical supervision. I don't think this subject is something to make jokes about :(

@Joan: Allright, sounds like it wasn't all that bad. And I'm on the right diet (about the same as you, though also lots of nuts). Too bad the muscles in your legs came back haha, I was hoping they would have vanished forever.. I hate those f***ers ;) I'll keep you posted on the progress! @Mr Monkey: I've read about dehydration. Sounds like a dangerous approach. You should read what Dave MacLeod says about it. Though it might make you boulder slightly harder (wouldn't suprise me), I consider it a health risk. So I'm going to stay thoroughly hydrated if you don't mind :) I know you're joking... and I can step back and think for myself. But maybe others can't. So like Christian says, maybe this isn't the topic for "dangerous jokes" ;) But good luck with your thesis, I'm curious what you will find! Cheers to all! Great thread imo.

well..  joking and joking..  heh..  this is something that everybody does when comp. in martial arts. But yeah..  people have died going over the top..happen to some wrestlers that cut about 10%, and died from heat stroke. but as far as i know it has only happen ones, and its something everybody does..  like you try do rehydrate before the fight but in most cases this does not happen and you end up fighting dehydrated. But there is a difference in going all out in a fight for 20 min and climbing for 30 sek..  this is one theory why people get brain damage in boxing. Most boxers that get problems are not HW, and this is not logical as the HWs should punch hardest, but they don't cut..  like you get less fluid in the brain or something and the punches do more damage..    Like i know i have done some of my best climbing the day after getting really drunk, and hungover..  and i know some other people also feel this..  And the biggest thing in being hung over is being dehydrated.  But as you say, this is not something for normal people.. and maybe it´s best not to know if it can give you a edge..  then there is no way back, as in fighting..  like you have to do it.. but hey..  having a BMI of 17 is not healthy either..   

Here's what Magnus Mitbo has to say about it. What's most interesting to me, is his view that it is a short term solution. Hi Armand, Feel free to post this statement as it is. However I don't want it changed in any way. Regards Magnus Well I'm definitely no expert on the subject. However I think saying "anorexia is good for climbing" is a huge stretch. We are all built differently, and one of the good things about climbing is that regardless of how nature shaped us, we can all become good climbers. In climbing you can choose what suits your style and pleases your eye, which is exactly what makes climbing more than just a sport. I think there are a lot of naturally skinny people out there. Calling them anorexic without any medical evidence is not fair. That said, sadly climbing is a sport where loosing weight can be beneficial. However I think of that as a short term solution, a shortcut if you will. You will get strong for a very limited amount of time. After that time has passed you will be weaker than when you started loosing weight - One step forward, two steps back. I don't see anything wrong in loosing a little weight before an important competition or a route on your limit. Though it's a dangerous game. You need to know when to stop. And especially for young climbers it can be a destructive path. What really upsets me is when I see a parent or coach of a young climber encourage their kid to loosing weight in order to become a better climber. They should really know better. Having a healthy relation to training and food as a youth is what's most important and I think that is where we all should do what we can to contribute.

Update: I went down to 73 in 3 weeks, and I'm already noticing the difference!

This i good man, keep posting, i need reminders that i'm also suppose to do this. I havn't checked my weight in a while, but i too feel stronger than ever, so keep up the good work!

As promised, an update. 29-05: @70.5 kgs 1.5 one arm pull-up: check! :)  Doing that was completely, utterly impossible two months ago. I've been having a finger injury in my left hand for a month now, so I can't test if the weight loss results in harder climbing. My guess would be that right now it doesn't, because I'm not climbing routes but only doing some mild excersize on my training board because of the injury. Time will tell! Btw, I've reset my weight goal at 65 kgs, because somewhere here in the forum someone has done scorecard-research showing that the average BMI for people that climb 8b+ or harder is about 21,3. The top 50 climbers here at 8a.nu do have a lower BMI than that (around 20,2 average), but from place 51 down to 500, there does not seem to be a direct relationship between having a higher BMI and climbing less hard. However, the average BMI of these climbers is still very low.

Don't set your goals too far apart. Make smaller steps and see how you feel. If you set your goal to 65kg, but realize at 68 that you're not feeling well because of that the pressure to continue to lose weight will be less. (the pressure _you_ put on yourself)

Good point, taking small steps is key. That being said, the 65kg goal is always subject to how I feel. If I start feeling bad, I will stop. Simple :)

Be sure to stop then! :)

:)

stop thinking about losing weight and just climb more. I am 176cm and 72Kg the hardest i have RP'd is 8a, but know climbing harder is within my ability...Three 8a's have taken me 4 tries apiece.  My personal goal is to have fun and develop routes so i do not care about grades. projecting is not for me. the second half is this...a good friend of mine is 174cm and 86kg.  yeah, he is like a walking brick wall.  this guy RP's 8b and 8b+!  His footwork is amazing! of course he has really strong fingers but it is all in the feet.   answer... climb more and don't be so concerned about the grades.