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2008-12-04 00:00:00 |
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Dave MacLeod made the FA of Rhapsody, 8c or 8c+, a contender for being the hardest trad route in the world, in 2006. The ascent was very well featured in the E11 DVD with a personal story including some long falls. Since then Sonny Trotter and Steve McClure has repeated it.
However, Dave Macleod says now in his blog that Rhapsody in fact is an elimination, "It’s a shame that arête is there, and so the route I took has to have an eliminate rule.", apparentely Dave thinks that Steve only did an E10.
Steve says, 'The only thing that was different was that I took the last hold on the route with my right hand rather than with my left guess that means I didn't do the route then, oh well!'/J
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2008-12-05 13:22:10 |
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His name is Sonnie Trotter. Not Sonny. You may upgrade my account whenever you feel like it.
Where did you get the quote from Steve? Would be nice to read the full story.
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2008-12-05 13:27:26 |
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Isn't this something that was discussed in depth at the time Trotter and McClure repeated it this summer?
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2008-12-05 14:42:03 |
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All I remember from that time is that someone, started talking about downgrades and that the E-grade should be converted to the YDS.
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2008-12-05 14:46:31 |
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Dave's blog where he comments this:
Dave's blog
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2008-12-08 09:28:19 |
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I think that 8a should be giving lower priority to routes with eliminations. He should have registered the route as an E-10 and used the easier escape. The fact he used the harder move on top is daft on his part. Who in his right mind would spend an additional year working a route knowing that it would later have to be an elimination. Respect the features of the rock, and allow people to use them. If that was too easy for him he should have found another climb which has less features and doesn't require elimination of holds. Isn't climbing about finding the easiest way up in a particular line?
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2008-12-08 12:32:00 |
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@ Pascal: I do think you are right but just you believe what kind of criticism I would receive if we announced this. It is not easy to be the 8a publisher.
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2008-12-08 13:13:20 |
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In this case I believe that the controversy would be justfied as opposed to contrived controversy with regard to the general criticism of the "E" grade system. Is this a case of once bitten, twice shy? Go-no throw your hat in the ring on this one, be brave!
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2008-12-17 11:44:53 |
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If we study the picture from UKclimbing and the story from Sonnie Trotter, apparantely the E11 Rhapsody is made up by one variation and two eliminations.
1. You are supposed to go left and around the easier straight up sequence, from the ledge.
2. Once you go left you are not allowed to use the arete, you have to traverse right
3. In the end, you are not allowd to traverse left, you have to go straight up
Anybody could climb anything in order to make up a nice challenge. Dave is one of the best allround climber in the world and so are Sonnie and Steve.
However, once the media reports about "world record" ascents like this we have to make sure to give full details. Myself and 8a do not think a "world record" route can be made up by one, two or three eliminates.
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2008-12-17 12:26:51 |
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@Jens
What makes you think that you are a good judge for "world records" ? Is your ambition to make 8a.nu the Guiness book of climbing?
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2008-12-17 13:06:42 |
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I can as everyone compare grades. Dave has suggested 8c+ for Rhapsody, which we all now know is an elimination.
I do think this interest the community.
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2008-12-17 13:21:43 |
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@jens
I' m going to ask in a different manner my question, hoping that this time you will answer it:
What makes you think you are capable of chosing wether a route or another is a contender for being the hardest?
The reason I ask this question to you is because you don' t seem to know that Dave' s hardest route is not Rapsody, but a route called Echo Wall ... As a news publisher, I find it incredible that you don' t even know the news that your site delivers! And the sport grade for this route is 8c+, but you see in Dave blog that it feels to him like 9a, so harder than Beth's Meltdown.
So, the fact that you seem to ignore this makes me think that you are not a good judge at all to chose a "hardest trad route". Hence my question.
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2008-12-17 13:43:44 |
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I am simply trying to do my best and try to gather as much information as possible. This is one way to ask for it like I did, In Dave's scorecard he has put Echo Wall as a "soft" 8c+.
Thanks, do you have any more info of it and in which style he climbed it?
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2008-12-17 14:23:12 |
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Bernard, don't try to fool Jens with declarations that something would be a soft 8c+ as a bolted climb or as a toprope but "feels like 9a"
he's still having his time fighting with the idea that, when risk assessing, strategy and mental strenght are huge factors, "the sport climbing grade it would get" does not answer totally the question : "how hard is it?How many men could climb that?"
:D
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2008-12-17 15:01:39 |
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Dave climbed echo wall following 2 years of trying the moves (shunt) and so the route. When he led the route, it was placing all gear on the lead. He rated it harder overall (not saying technically) than raphsody or anything else he had ever climbed. Mainly due to the technical difficulty and the prospect of a 20m fall to the ground if was too pumped to do the crux moves.
I would suggest you buy Dave and Claires DVD of the ascent, build up and training. Its very very impressive.
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2008-12-17 15:20:33 |
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8a do not value death potential when it comes to list the hardest trad routes in the world.
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2008-12-17 16:40:29 |
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Jens wrote: 8a do not value death potential when it comes to list the hardest trad routes in the world.
To me this seems like a non coherent standpoint, i don't understand it.
If you don't value death potential you are very close to ignoring all the danger.
If you do that you might as well ignore all the trad routes since a trad route then becomes nothing more than a bolted route with extra pump for placing the gear.
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2008-12-17 17:02:13 |
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@gianluca :
Where do you get that i' m trying too fool Jens ? I' m only reapeating what is writen on Dave's blog and that Jens seems to ignore . Therefore, you think that Dave is trying to fool anyone with his statements ?
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2008-12-17 17:10:51 |
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@ Bernhard: Dave has registered Echo Wall as a soft 8c+ in the 8a data base. What do I ignore?
@ Herman: We value the difficulty of the route measured on how physically difficult it is to climb including placing the gear. This is the normal way of grading sport and trad routes. Yes, we ignore danger and we do not give any extra credits for climbing death potential routes, while listing the most (physically) difficult trad routes in the world..
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2008-12-17 17:34:08 |
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@Bernard
it was ironic.
I am not Dave Mac, but I guess he was meaning :
A-"soft" 8c+ is the purely technical difficulty, that you can evaluate toproping the pitch.
B-Throwing in the fact that you shouldn't fall here and there and the mental effort required by this fact in terms of motivation and control, and/or the "safety margin" that you are willing to have on every move not to face a probable injury/death, climbing echo wall on the actual lead felt to him as requiring as climbing a new safe bolted project worth 9a or more.
the distinction between A and B feels obvious to me. Jens either doesn't see it or he does not want to declare it on this site, fearing that he would promote dangerous ascents, solos, etc.
That's why I said "don't fool him" : give him the purely technical information, expressed in french sport grade - he does not want to know more.
btw Jens : isn't this inconsistent with your attention to style issues?
You ask people just the technical/physical grade, then if they "cheat" to make it psychologically easier you get upset.
But as far as only the purely technical/physical difficulty is concerned, then climbing a trad line with preplaced and tested gear wouldn't change that much. After all that's the conclusion we already came to for sport climbs and preplaced draws, no?
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2008-12-17 17:55:41 |
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@Jens: That there is a world outside the 8a database!
More seriously, on his blog, you can read why he doesn't grade his route, and also that it is harder than Rapsody, and that its soft 8c+ is actually for tope rope difficulty.
But if you are ranking the " world' s hardest trad routes without death being an option", then you souldn' t know any thing and stick to your database' s analysis. But don' t call your list the hardest trad route, unless you want to cheat your readers....
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