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2008-11-25 00:00:00 |
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Yesterday, Adam Ondra made a 2nd go ascent of Halupca 1978 (FA Matej Sova) at Osp, Slovenia. 9a 2nd go... is this really possible? Even Adam himself seems to doubt it, commenting: I had not even wanted to send it that try, but suddenly I was on top, I do not know about grade - am I really so strong or am I just SO lucky recently? Pretty good route though. Usual Ondra style, he warmed down by climbing Revolicija, 8c, making increasing his number of 8c's and harder this year to 63. There's no way that's not a record too.
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2008-11-25 21:59:52 |
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... very nice :)
but it wasn't his first "Second go 9a" ... In his scoreboard "Open Your Mind R2" is his first "Second go 9a".
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2008-11-25 22:31:47 |
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wow. just wow!
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2008-11-25 22:33:28 |
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If it takes him an unspecified ammount of tries to send Weiße Rose then this route cannot be 9a. I wonder why Adam didn`t downgrade it. It needs guys like him who also climb the old classics to put the grades into perspective again.
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2008-11-25 22:37:47 |
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I edited my first post, but now I post it here ...
First post:
but it wasn't his first "Second go 9a" ... In his scoreboard "Open Your Mind R2" is his first "Second go 9a".
Edit: So, I wonder why he is that confused about his power. "Open Your Mind R2" is a "soft" 9a for him, did he say anything about downgrading this route? What does he think if he compares "Weiße Rose" to this two routes? Are they still 9a after thinking about it?
I know you are no visionary but maybe someone knows more about these two "soft" 9a's.
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2008-11-25 23:55:03 |
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Heelo Folks, i do not understand why Adam is not the number one in 8a's world ranking, that is a incorrect ranking system in my opinion sorry... but with two 9a+ & ten 9a's the last year he must be the number one immediately, and he has much more 8c+ and 8c routes climbed last 12 month then patxi, i think the 8a system is not correct i think that is not a good image for 8a!
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2008-11-26 00:07:05 |
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I'd say the route could more than well be 9a, he sends pretty hard nowadays and just couse it didn't take him a lot of tries, that doesn't mean it cant be 9a. Every single route is special and doesn't require the same amount of tries, For myself I could onsight a 7b but another 7b route, another day and another style could take me two days of tries. Peace out wiggers.
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2008-11-26 01:08:21 |
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If Adam would not have down graded many ascents he would have been #1 in the world ranking. As it is now, Patxi has onsighted two 8c+ which gives him points equally to 9b. That is also the reason why Adam is #2.
For me, if you can do a 9a second Go, you could do a 9a+ within two days and a 9b within in 10 days and a 9b+ within 30 days. I do beleive Adam can climb 9b+ now, but it would be boring for him, when there are so many more 9a's to be done.
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2008-11-26 07:56:51 |
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I guess I agree with Q-Bert. Looking at the extremely impressive logbook of Adam Ondra, one wonders why he's nor No 1 on the ranking, even with the downgrades! The other question is: should really an onsight be worth as much as a redpoint three grades higher (e.g. 8c+ OS = 9b Redpoint)?
Looking around at my climber friends (the good ones, climbing in the eigth grade) it seems that most of them genrally send two grades higher routes when they Redpoint compared to Onsight, not three. I guess that the 8a database could be used to make statistics to see what is the average difference between most difficult OS and redpoint for top climbers. That should give an indication of how many additional points should be given to an OS.
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2008-11-26 08:19:02 |
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Hm... When I was in Fontainebleau, I onsighted La Lili, Fb6c+, my hardest boulder so far (I did another Fb6c+ two days later, but it took me longer). It didn't take me much effort, some times it is just the perfect route an you're there at the perfect moment. I was as surprised as Adam might be at the moment (although his climbing skills are lightyears away from mine), so I downgraded it (or took at least the lower slashgrade, can't remember). I was climbin a lot before that trip, so I wasn't in a bad shape - but I was surprised nonetheless.
Let's just take what Adam did in oct and nov this year 8b-and-harder: 30 routes all in all, amongst them "Hotel Supramonte" OS, 5 FAs (probably no beta) and one 9a+, ...
All in all, he was climbing a lot of hard routes. So a agree with Jens that currently, he is able to do relly badass lines (sending his 9b-range-project or whatever)... So there's no evidence in downgrading unless one of the ascenders feels like doing so.
@ Jens: your maths are only working for exactly the same style of climbing. You know it for yourself: slopers, crimpers, jugs...
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2008-11-26 09:52:21 |
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Not a good exemple: coz La Lili is just a 6c (bleau.info) and very eliminante as well (its hard to do it the 'right' way):
"Si mes souvenirs sont bons, tu dois bien resté sur l'angle et ne pas dévier à gauche pour aller chercher un plat MG dans la ligne du orange d'à côté comme font certains..La difficulté réside en fait- avec arêtes MD en pince -régle en inver MG -PD ds l'axe- à monter PG juste sous la MG pour aller cherche MG assez haut dans l'axe...."
and:
"L'éliminante consiste à ne pas prendre la petite prise taillée pour le pied gauche, mais faire une crocher de talon et prendre ensuite l'aplat main gauche devant soi et non pas l'aplat assez à gauche bras tendu.
Si on regarde bien, il y a trois prises taillées : celle "interdite en pied gauche mais très accessible ; ensuite la prise main droite de la fissure (commune à la bleue de droite) puis la prise de pied droite du départ. On peut se passer fort bien de tout cela en posant le pied droit dés le premier mouvement sur l'adhérence au-dessus de la prise taillée, on talonne, puis on brasse en oppo dans la fissure de droite. C'est à peine plus dure que la version artificielle et c’est plus pur."
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2008-11-26 10:07:38 |
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When we started the scorecard in 2000, from my point of view, most of the climbers were focusing on redpoint and in the magazines, you could seldom read about onsight. This was the main reason why you almost get three extra grades once onsighting. Another reason is that on granite, you should in most of the cases add four grades.
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2008-11-26 11:42:33 |
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Jens wrote : "Another reason is that on granite, you should in most of the cases add four grades."
I would love to hear this theory. Please do explain.
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2008-11-26 11:55:07 |
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I would love to hear this theory. Please do explain.
Me too. From personal experience I would say that the few and obvious features of granite, such as crimps, flakes, and cracks, make onsighting easier than in other type of rock, such as a heavily pocketed limestone wall.
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2008-11-26 12:59:04 |
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In order to do hard onsights, chalk and tick marks is essential and on steep brownish you see them clearly. On granite, you do not see the chalk all the time and rain takes it away. The swedish top climber Said Belhaj onsight 8a reguraly but back home in Sweden it is much more difficult. I have personally seen Yuji Hirayama fall on a 7b+ onsight in Sweden and that would not be possible on limestone or sand stone, I guess.
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2008-11-26 13:49:29 |
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Hmm, better learn your classics Jens!
Brenna failed to onsight a 7b then Onsigted the first 8b (or was it 8b+?) in the Calanques.
but, in fact, this single example shows as much as your example of Yuji: nothing.
All that remains is that chalk marks makes onsights easier, most of the time...
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2008-11-26 13:54:26 |
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Its not OK that a 8c+ Onsight is the same Points like a 9b redpoint, there are two different shoes. 8a should fix the problem immediately !!!
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2008-11-26 13:58:08 |
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Onsighting on granite is harder - period. Ask your parents why if you can't figure it out yourself.
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2008-11-26 14:01:15 |
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I do think that an 8c+ onsight is far better than 9b redpoint.
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2008-11-26 14:19:30 |
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Ludwig Davidsson, then you say that Patxi Usobiaga is a better Climber then Adam Ondra, i dont think so !!!
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2008-11-26 14:33:29 |
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So, back to ondra...is the first ascender his friend or what? :D
grades are relative to agreed "benchmarks"...how much effort he needed for the agreed benchmark AD?
@those who said about doing very different performances on the same grades.
When it happens to me, and expecially if it happens within the same period on the same style and i know that there were no bad mental issues on the worse performance, well....
....I honestly ask myself if one or both of the two grades is "wrong".
Still, there is some doubt due to the fact that the grade should represent how difficult something is for the community*, and the single experience can be different, but when I do one 7A boulder in 50+ tries and then a quite similar 7A+ in four, I am quite puzzled anyway...
*if not I see no point in grades. the subjective feelings of effort and difficulty are accessible to anyone trying a route or problem. The valuable additional information is the one telling you how many will fail and how many succeed, the one telling what others are expected to feel.
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2008-11-26 16:01:38 |
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@Q-Bert
I dont think you can compare paxti and ondra. paxti can onsight 8c+ (and has climbed 9a+'s), while ondra hasnt onsighted 8c+ but climbs 9a+. They are both mutants!
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2008-11-26 18:43:23 |
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8c+ OS : 1 person
9a+ RP : about 10 ?
For me 8c+ is harder than 9a+...
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2008-11-26 18:53:59 |
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Ok Folks anyway, i don't think so..., i think Patxi cannot climb "Open Air", Chris Sharma and Christian Bindhammer said its impossible to climb, Adam did other hard Route's in the second Go like "Halupca" or "Il Picolo Orso". Then he should do the "WoGü" redpoint, surely Patxi is a Monster, but he is not so a Allround Genious like Adam Ondra. Adam is in Status like Wolfgang Güllich, Chris Sharma, Alexander Huber.
I hope he will crack the first Rank on 8a.nu soon to show that i'm right, so we will see if i'm true or not hehe ...
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2008-11-26 19:04:55 |
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Tick marks = Beta = No onsight
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2008-11-26 19:12:36 |
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This is so unbelievable....maybe he sould start trying some projects close to 9b.....se what happens....maybe he does one
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2008-11-26 21:41:20 |
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Fuck the ranking everybody seems to agree that ondra is the king anyway !?
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2008-11-26 21:42:56 |
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Sorry to interrupt you, and even do so in a most destructive way, but all of this is so much rubbish, it's simply unbelievable.
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2008-11-26 22:52:46 |
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The biggest ammount of rubbish however comes from Jens who can`t do without rambling about the time/grade scale? WHY THE FUCK are you talking about 9b+ when no 9b has been confirmed??? You always talk a shitload about climbing being not about grades, still all you focus on is grades or grade related!!! Probably nothing has contributed more to grade inflation than the scorecard system...it was about time to get this straight...I´ve been defending this page for some time and still think it rocks, yet the direction things took in the past months is seriously on the point of ridicule...if news about a 9a second go get more attention than Sharma`s Jumbo Love got something is SERIOUSLY wrong... the whole best climber of the world story is out of the picture...Sharma and Ondra would probably laugh about a bunch of fools discussing whether Patxi is better or not than Adam...everybody is best at stuff that suits his style...IT`S AS SIMPLE AS THAT!!!
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2008-11-26 23:06:16 |
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oh my god christian
then climbing is not made to decide once forever who is THE STRONGEST among humans?
:O
Fuck, I think I'll stop climbing.
:D
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2008-11-26 23:36:23 |
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QUOTE: "Tick marks = Beta = No onsight" ...
Not a personal dig, just a topic that kinda interests me...
I was under the impression 'beta' required sequence as well (at least beta to void an onsight...) I don't know about you, but most of the tick marks I've seen merely highlight that there is a foothold there or there or a pocket behind a ledge of a dynamic move ... (debatable if this is voiding your onsight...) The tick marks don't tell me what the sequence of the 'path of least resistance' of a climb is...
It's a bit of a grey isn't it?
What about the whole 'I down climbed from the crux but it's still my onsight'...
Variances exist in climbing culture... some would consider tick-marks to void onsight but you could take this further and say that climbs with any chalk on them can't be onsighted... and some would not be so pedantic...
IMO: First touch of the route, feet off, climbing begins - no advice from people about where to 'hold holds' or 'what sequance to do' etc etc is an onsight - tick marks allowd! (Unless they're like, Left Hand here, Right Foot here, Left Foot here, Right Foot here..., CLIP FROM THIS HOLD etc etc! haha!)
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2008-11-27 00:23:52 |
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Right, and when the whole route is full of tickmarks, like @ schleier wasserfall austria, there are so many tickmarked solutions, that nobody cant recognize which solution is for himself the best, or some pockets, micro flakes or slopers just white powered because many people used it to test find or check out a way to solute the problem. So tickmars could bring you on the wrong way, when you feel hey this can be a nice solution, but there is no white chalk or tickmark to see, so it must be to haard for me, i think this routes will be easier for me without tickmars!!!
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2008-11-27 07:05:54 |
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I thought I read several months back that Sharma did a 9a on the 2nd go. Is that right?
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2008-11-27 10:23:07 |
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Oh-my-God-fuckeroony-jeez...
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2008-11-27 12:50:27 |
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Why do we even try to determine which climber is the strongest, it is impossible. There is no scientific way to determine it. We do not practice a sport like athletics or wheightlifting, where you can correctly measure who is fastest or who is strongest. We practise a subjective sport. Like other great sports, we should keep it subjective. Who is the best footballplayer ever ? Who is the best cyclist ever ? It is impossible to say. You do not say that the player who scored the most goals in his competition is the best player in the world, right ? These "prices" are only voted by people and not based on science. Almost every price in sports is based on the number of votes an athlete receives from a number of voters.
Maybe Jens is the strongest in this system, but more likely he will end up with 2 votes, his moms and his own....
I think we should make all ascents on this site no score log book ascents and let the users decide for themselves what ranking they want to create. Just for their persnoal need to rank climbers. All statistics-lovers can than play around and compare their rankings and arrange meeting in dark, musty rooms...
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2008-11-27 21:54:03 |
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Is the 8c+ OS by Patxi the one he did an FA of?
'cause by definition, it sounds like a joke.
Also, if you OS a route full of chalk marks that help you choose the right holds and still call it an OS, then it's another joke.
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2008-11-27 22:27:03 |
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I thought the same, i think how it is possible to onsight his own First Ascent of a Route ?! - Has he bolted yet or not ?!
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2008-11-28 01:34:56 |
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@Martin Thompson: Find a open project, send it onsight and vóila here is your onsight FA
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2008-11-28 11:07:36 |
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So easy: others climbers tried the route before Patxi but not did it. You got it?
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2008-11-28 16:46:50 |
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OK, I wasn't precise enough. Yes, you can make an OS FA. But you should be careful when declaring its grade at your personal best OS level. When onsighting a route you're quite likely not to follow the optimal sequence. And so even if you're one of the best OS specialists in the world, well humbleness would be good in this context.
Having said that, I actually have no doubts that Patxi is the best OS specialist in the world, judging by his record (and even ignoring that FA send) and the fact that for a number of years he's been focusing on competitions (=OS climbing) I'm sure he's been training specifically for that purpose. That's why his OS level is closer to his RP level than in the case of any other climber, including Ondra and Sharma, etc. And that's why it seems that in his case, the conversion scale used by 8a is not accurate. And that's why this kind of conversion probably doesn't make much sense at all; just like the whole idea of points and rankings.
As to Adam, I don't think he does any specialist training at all, he's still a kid and it could do him more harm than good (correct me if I'm wrong). So arguing that Adam hasn't onsighted any 8c yet is pointless.
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2008-11-28 17:37:45 |
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"arguing that Adam hasn't onsighted any 8c yet is pointless"
Given the fact that he has onsighted three of them, I agree ;)
About the 8c+ FA OS, we should remember that this was a project of a strong local (can't seem to remember his name), who thought it would go down as an 8c+ or 9a. In fact, I believe it had been worked by at least two guys.
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2008-11-29 01:41:42 |
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Yeah and who of us can decide whether it's 8c+ or not, better than patxi ? Some days routes and shit goes down so much easier, that said I mean he had a good day, felt strong and just did it, but don't worry the community will either confirm the grade or be sandbagging it down, "Jens style"
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2008-11-29 08:22:38 |
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there's some wickid Adam-Ondra-climbing-ethics-news... I posted it @ "AO repeats OA, 9a+!"
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