Forum: USA / News / 8a campaign towards chipping Login in to contribute
8a campaign towards chipping
  2008-07-22 00:00:00    
8a will in the future, give priority to report ascents on routes that are not chipped. Regarding, bouldering we will not at all report them and another plan is also that boulder ascents should be confirmed not chipped to be calculated in the scorecard. This is just some quick thoughts that came up after a discussion with Dave Graham. What do you think? We now that there are a fine line in between natural and chipped but anyhow, it is another 8a statement that we hope will be well received.
OffLine Brian Runnells
  2008-07-24 19:23:38    
Interesting idea but as you alluded to enforcement would be extremely difficult.  Who decides what counts as a chipped route?  How many times does someone climb something and not even know it is chipped/manufactured/glued/what have you.

Taking a stance against chipping is a good idea however "punishing" people by not allowing them to register the ascent or reporting their ascent when they are most likely not even the person who chipped the route seems a bit harsh.

Also, see mountainproject for examples of what happens when you let people start debating what is and is not chipping.  Gets ugly...
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2008-07-25 10:16:18    

It is off course possible to start reading all 8a news from a negative way. I am refering to blog cash, anorexia and now chipping. If we only focus on negative things, we do not see the positive aspects.

The 8a campaign towards chipping is something that foremeost is written in order to make climber not chipp in the future. It is just to make a statement that might influent others.

I have put up 200+ routes so I know that in a way it is impossible to exact define chipping...

OffLine Matthew St. Peter
  2008-07-25 18:09:33    
My thoughts: Chipping sucks.

But it has been done in the past and will keep happening despite our best efforts to stop it. I have been on (as far as I know) only a small number of chipped routes and blocs but most often I did not know about it until afterwards. I still enjoyed the climb and agreed with the proposed grades. I worry that going down this path will exclude amazing routes from seeing repeats. Just Do It in Smith Rocks is supposedly chipped. But climbers rave about how amazing this route is. Negating these ascents would therefore discourage their being climbed by some. Because I use 8a just to keep track of my own progress and remember what I have done, I will not be discouraged from getting on chipped routes because climbing anything is fun!

I would propose that people just recognize that these routes are chipped and leave it at that. I think the people that are doing the chipping will not be discouraged from doing so by the actions taken here on 8a. Do you think that chippers will suddenly say, "Oh, 8a will not recognize my new route/problem because I removed a jug to make it harder so I am not going to do it." The answer is no. They will do it anyway, or at least that's what I say. (Nature is the worst chipper in the business anyway).

What about the giant flake removed from Scarface at Smith also? Cleaning or chipping? Where can we draw that line? What about key holds reinforced by glue? Does that turn them into gym problems? I think the vagueries and wide range of chipping, cleaning and gluing make this idea a bit problematic. But it is worth the debate. My two cents anyway...
OffLine Milky "Bonerack" Williams
  2008-07-25 23:33:12    
I don't like the idea of 8a having thoughts and opinions.  8a is an inanimate object.  It can not love or feel pain and it should not try to police the world of climbing.  Of course Jens has opinions, as do the other 8a editors, but they are no more important than the users opinions or the rest of the climbing community.  It's fine to raise discussion and talk about these things but it seems like recently 8a is becoming "big brother" and trying to tell me how to live my life.  I'm not going to chip, but like Matthew said, if I climb scarface I sure as hell want to be able to put it on my scorecard without red lights flashing and the ethics police erasing my card from the database.  Jens, as far as focusing on the negative......it seems like that's all you guys have been focusing on.  The minority of climbers that chip and glue routes and then throw up in the bushes to send them.  Lets focus on climbing news which I believe was the original intent of the site.   
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2008-07-26 10:38:04    
# Matthew and Postmaster

Please read the news again. You say something that is not written in the news. In fact, you invent something and then start to criticize.

This is the same story with the anorexia news, some climbers just jump into conclusions that is based on a fantasy, it seems.
OnLine Andy.S
  2008-07-26 14:41:22    

chipping... takes the climb look like rubbish in certain occasions. Doesnt allow for others to have the same experience of climbing fresh rock. but on the other hand it gives the dick head who did it a big head thinking he/she is good.

i think lowering the score of chipped routes would decrease the amount of routes being chipped because people with those sortes of climbing morals are usually the ones who care so much about getting their name on the 8a front page...
chippers are the kind of people we simply dont want in the sport, they ruin it for everyone..

have you noticed people who chip generally dont own up to it... cause they know they are losers! who simply cant climb as good as their big head wants them to.


on another note, i agree with postmaster, 8a should not have an opinion on issues. it is merely a service for users. if the editors of this site want to express their opinion they should get their own profiles and express their opinions like everyone else.

CHIPPING IS GAY

OffLine DWF
  2008-07-28 01:34:45    
I have now logged all chipped routes in my scorecard as loggbook accents. They are still great routes and for example Destruction in Orpierre is a great exaple of a route I would recomend and still it would have been possible to climbe with out some of the manufacturing of the holds so its a sad story in a way.
OffLine Matthew St. Peter
  2008-07-28 04:58:10    
I apologize if I read the post wrong but I am not sure as to what it was I invented. I simply think its valid to discuss whether or not to allow the recording of chipped blocs/routes in my scorecard or anyones. If that is not the issue then I misread. I think I will just keep climbing.

As far as reporting on the news of sends of chipped routes/boulders, are there professionals and alike out there chipping and climbing big numbers? All I can say is 'what the fuck is wrong witchu!?' What about all the pin scars? Dreamcatcher anyone? Chipped or not? Are we climbers to be penalized for the actions of aiders and tradders of olde? Just thinking out loud.
OffLine Tommy "The" Wilson
  2008-07-28 04:59:20    
aha. so if we just condense this it might read: "chipping is bad".

brilliant anti-chipping campaign.

subtle even.
OffLine DWF
  2008-07-28 09:22:58    
@ Matthew

Pegg scars is a different story its a "natural" way of chipping from an other diciplin of climbing. Once a Aid route is free aid should stopp. But we need climbers practising different ways of climbing.

I think a nice free route with holds drilled or added is what we are talking about. As idividuals we can all make a statment against chipping by not give that kind of route the same status in our scorecard as a natural route. However we can still enjoy the chipped rout and for sure keep climbing.





OffLine Suq Madiq
  2008-07-28 18:08:26    
So, which top climber was lying on his scorecard?
OffLine Emanuele Pellizzari
  2008-07-28 21:02:06    
No chipping.
E
OffLine Emanuele Pellizzari
  2008-07-28 21:06:06    
Never.
E
OffLine Suq Madiq
  2008-07-28 22:01:30    
Alright, Im gonna throw a few names out there.  You tell me if I get it right...

Patxi?...  Ramonet?...  Dani Andrada?...  Mike Williams?  Am I getting warmer?
OffLine DWF
  2008-07-28 23:17:38    
@Gibbons

17
OffLine DWF
  2008-07-28 23:23:34    
I like this statement but then all 8a officials has to start changing there scorecards and ticking chipped routes as log book accents or this is just empty words.

It will be fun to see how this effects the rankings... I for sure dropped off.
OffLine Mike Bockino
  2008-08-04 05:19:26    
Just to preface:  I DO NOT AGREE WITH CHIPPING SOMETHING HARD DOWN TO YOUR LEVEL.  I DO AGREE WITH TAKING BLANK HOLDLESS (EVEN FOR PAXTI, DAVE AND CHRIS) AREAS AND MAKING SOMETHING OF THEM IF THAT IS YOUR CLOSEST OPTIONS. 

Dreamtime, New Baseline, Just Do It.  any of those ring a bell?  there are some of the hardest climbs in the world and they are one of hundreds probably thousands of routes/problems that are either chipped, drilled, glued, sika'd, hit with carbide tipped rain or dangerous flakes have been torn off to prevent someone being killed. if we all lived near a Ceuse, Rodellar Santa Linya Font, Joes, Hueco Rockalnds, Peak District we would not have to take our shitty limestone cave with no holds in it besides routes that would end up being 5.16 and drill them down to make .12's .13's and 14's.   but i bet if you went to all of those crags there is a chipped route at almost every one. 

Oh, and to Andy from Aussie land, if some people didn't chip before you, your "fresh rock" would be bloody holdless mate.  big heads come from being cocky, not from being humble enough to sit in a harness for 10 hours a day running a drill so the nest two generations of climbers can have some cool shit to climb on.  I have the upmost respect for people who put the time in to drill routes in unclimbable rock.  Not for people that will chip things down to a level that they can climb of course.  but taking the high road soapbox here is just ignorant. 
OffLine Emanuele Pellizzari
  2008-08-08 13:06:30    
OffLine Ben
  2008-08-28 00:38:26    
It seems harsh that 8a would not allow a chipped route on the scorecard, many people have access only to cliffs that are heavily chipped and drilled.  Allowing previously drilled routes but not drilled/chipped FA's would seem more reasonable
OffLine Biquette Atomique
  2008-08-31 21:09:15    
Shouldn't it be "8a campaign against chipping" ?

It's a good idea, but a bit difficult to apply.
Identifying a route as chipped is not easy in many cases.
Some routes have been aggressively cleaned and comfortised, and even with an expert eye, you can't really know if it has been chipped without being a forensic investigator specialised in hammer blows and rock splatter patterns or whatever.

Some routes are notoriously chipped, and easy to identify... so I say go for it.  Tag them as such.
Then, people might stop writing the route's name correctly so it doesn't get identified as chipped by the database...

Not giving points? A bit harsh.
Maybe for chipped FA's. 

Marking chipped routes as such is sufficient.  Let people judge what the tag means by themselves.
Put in a ranking option that sorts out chipped routes.
If they think climbing chipped routes is less of a challenge, well, they will look at scorecards with chipped ascents with a stink eye, like they do with scorecard that are full of lies (there are some that pop up now and then).
If people want to diminish the efforts of those who repeat chipped lines (and they might be right by doing so), give them the option to do it by themselves when they use your website.

If you do that, you should put some more comment space for people to put in excuses for climbing chipped routes, you're bound to get plenty of these...

OffLine John
  2008-10-08 22:39:39    
Postmaster and Bockino have the right Idea on this one.

But once again I believe that I and I alone have done the correct analysis of the situation.  In this situation you need to go for the gusto.

If a route is chipped and you can do it without the chipped holds.  Fill the chipped holds in, send the route and card it with the new grade and the route name followed up with a comment such as filled in pockets or 
natural. 

Now the real fun begins !  This is the step when you start calling the guy who chipped the route a scumbag. 

John D. Keane