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Anorexia & Lifestyle
  2008-06-05 00:00:00    
Some of the best climbers, especially women, are very skinny and in fact some are even anorectic. This might be considered as one of the major problems in the climbing community. 8a feels that such climbers should not be part of the scorecard and the ranking as we do not want to promote this type of lifestyle. Instead, we want to mention that Chris Sharma's weight is 71 - 75 kg. This gives the 184 cm tall, and probably the best climber in the world, a BMI index of 21.6. Should we make a recommendation of BMI > 17, for scorecard users?
OffLine Gomez
  2008-06-05 22:08:44    
Are you insane!? This is the most insensitive and ridiculous suggestion
OffLine William Bazargani
  2008-06-05 22:18:45    
Agreed. This is rediculous.

While eating disorders are a terrible thing, who is to say that someone is actually anorexic, as opposed to naturally very skinny?  All of a sudden there ascents are invalid because YOU think they have a disorder?  That's not for a website to decide, if there is an issue, you would hope their family and friends would step in, without outside intervention. 
Fully Insensitive.

Ciao-Boz
OffLine spanked
  2008-06-05 22:37:59    
Lifestyle?
OffLine gravity
  2008-06-05 22:40:53    

Guys, who do you think you are to dictate who's too skinny? Why BMI 17, not 16 or 19 or another stupid number?  I guess one of the best climbers Adam Ondra would be out. Shouldn't we disqualify the other end as well? BMI over 22 - out, too fat.  Anorexia goes hand to hand with decrease of performance. That's more important measure than BMI. Please, stop this nonsence!!!

OffLine tyson schoene
  2008-06-05 22:41:15    
really bad idea.
OffLine Square
  2008-06-05 23:04:46    
I've been viewing this site for a while now and just registered to comment on this brainfart.
A few years back i had a BMI far lower than 17 but i'm perfectly healthy actually thank you. What you're basically doing is rejecting people from a great service because of their body type, over which you have any knowledge at all except length and weight.
William said it best.
OffLine Rob
  2008-06-05 23:23:52    
Are you kidding? With my metabolism I could eat bars of lead and not gain weight.
OffLine Jose Ramon Alvarez Guedea
  2008-06-05 23:46:21    

and the question is how? jaja.

OffLine buoha
  2008-06-05 23:57:00    
well folks, just think a little bit more then just about your "scorecards" - surley there are many people with special metabolisem and/or other non food facts that results in a very low bmi. but its a fact that especially competition climbing brings strong incentives regarding very low bodyweight (steep long routes on "good" holds). if you look at some of the climbers (male and female) in the competition circuit they really are not looking healthy anymore. eating-disorder is really serious and once going to far you need years to get back in a normal life (even deadly if you go to far). nevertheless it looks like the decrease in power starts really late -  may to late... in austria there is a bmi-regulation for competitions... its well known that the bmi is may not the perfect indicator, and thats diffiult to set a mark - but at least there is something to keep the competition climbers from going to far... and if you look at other sports (where more monney is in), you see how far they go without any frontiers... and what a life; just eating rice waffers and pizza without cheese....
OffLine Crista Hollenberg (f)
  2008-06-06 00:01:27    
You never know what's going on in people's lives, so it should never be up to a website to make that decision. I have been accused of being anorexic when I wasn't. I didn't know what was wrong with my body... all I knew was I ate more than my 6' tall boyfriend and still had a severely low BMI and unexplainable fatigue. I was eventually diagnosed with two large ovarian tumors. Once they were removed I gained weight and energy and thankfully they weren't cancerous.

Or like Rob said... some people just have high metabolism. What if he had hyperthyroidism? Crohn's? Esoughageal disease? Ulcerative colitis? Oh... here's one most people suffer from.... stress?

If a person truly has anorexia nervosa, they already are paying the price physically and mentally. It's a disorder that should never be judged by some website.


OffLine Robbie Phillips
  2008-06-06 00:04:16    

Totally idiotic I think... One of ym good friends has an insanely low BMI and his body fat is non-existent...he's not anorexic, he eats tonnes to try and put on weight but can't... His ascents aren't invalid...are they?

OffLine x x
  2008-06-06 00:10:44    

Great idea.  To make it simple, why don't you just put a box on the personal info sheet that asks, "Are you anorexic?".  When someone clicks the "yes" box, then you can safely delete all their accents.  While you are at it, you could add further questions like, "Are you on steroids".  "Do you lie on your scorecard?", "Do you cheat on your lover?",  "Do you still like Duran Duran?".  Clean house!
OffLine User Deactivated
  2008-06-06 00:26:23    
Hopefully this is rock bottom for 8a.nu ... it can't get much worse than this.
OnLine Ketzal
  2008-06-06 00:31:37    
I figured it out first...

It's a joke people, don't even sweat it. No body on the face of the earth could possibly be serious about such an idiotic idea.

I mean if it was a legitimate suggestion then well...are you on the crack?

This is what happened, some fat, wobbly, and probably smelly person was at a local crag and saw a climber who was much better than them. The climber was lean because they dieted very very hard to keep a target boyfat percentage of 6%. Now the poster saw this amazing climber who was about a billion times better than them and in a fit of rage posted this idiotic idea to eliminate anybody in better shape than them.

A much better idea would be to simply eliminate all climbers without your name...

Is your name possibly...Hitler?

So now we all have to do a body fat immersion test before we can submit a climb, just incase we drop below 7%.

To the poster...I understand that anorexia is a serious problem. I have numerous female friends who have been through it. It is however none of your business and simply nothing to do with you. Some climbers...me included diet very strictly and as carefully as possible.

How on earth could you possible expect to know who was doing what?

If this was my website I'd fire whoever posted this, you have thousands of people on this site everyday. I would expect a much more professional approach than allowing an idoit to post whatever comes into their miniscule brain.

I run my own website so I know it's possible...
www.thescooterreview.com

Apart form that, keep up the good work :)

Regards

Ketzal



OffLine Kyle Kirk
  2008-06-06 01:52:56    
Wow, I've always had a bad taste in my mouth with regards to how this site portrays itself as some ethical leader in the climbing community, but this time you've gone too far, and now you've stepped over your bounds into a territory that is not yours to tread on with your uneducated bull shit. You've opened your big mouth on a subject which you obviously don't even have a layperson's understanding of. To begin with: anorexia a lifestyle? Anorexia is a serious mental disorder, how serious? Anorexia is known to much of the psychological community as THE most deadly mental disorder. The rate of fatality for this horrible disorder is extremely high, and the success rates of treatment are slim. Anorexia is an out of control set of behaviors and beliefs which the victim has little control over, as much as they may want to. What you are promoting here is discrimination against a group of people afflicted with a very serious illness. Would you discriminate against someone with cancer? I sure as hell hope not. This is vile and disgusting, whether a joke or not, and shows your great lack of knowledge and understanding about a very very serious illness. Your credibility is forever shot in my eyes now you foolish judgemental pigs.
OffLine bexnz
  2008-06-06 03:25:10    
Wow this sure caused some passionate responses! I have to agree that this is a bad idea.I am one of those people who is naturally small - I'm constantly just barely over BMI 18 and I eat like a horse! And thats when I'm pretty sedentary - once I start training more intensely it will definitely drop below but I'm totally 100% healthy. I also have another friend who eats as much as I do and is smaller again. However, I have suffered from eating "issues" previously, and  whilst it does often take an intervention from family and friends to help a person who is suffering from this illness  I don't think that a website draw a line in the sand and say this is what makes you anorexic. Maybe you are trying to emulate the situation a while ago where models were banned from the catwalk for being seriously underweight - in this situation they were assessed by a doctor and many other factors apart from their BMI were taken into account. As you cannot have every climber with a low BMI assessed by a doctor, and likewise you can't prevent people from lying on their profiles, I really don't think that you can legitimately introduce this. As indicated by the volume of responses, I'd imagine you would probably lose a fair number of avid readers and contributors to this site.
OffLine Steve Juhasz
  2008-06-06 03:26:01    
I think we should remove from the rankings everybody too skinny, too fat, too ugly, too pretty, with long hair, older than 40, younger than 20 so that Jens and that other admin guy can move up in the rankings.

Great idea 8a!
OffLine James O'Connor
  2008-06-06 05:21:57    
This is so poor, stupid and heinous it is on level with being something for April 1st. Though there is some pretty tough competition for stupidest things 8a could post this is down there.
OffLine J.Gunn
  2008-06-06 05:51:01    

Yeah... probably not the best idea to start doing stuff like preventing score-cards from being displayed if someone has a 'potentially unhealthy diet etc etc' [regardless of any test used (BMI is terrible and doesn't take into account body type etc etc as someone has previously mentioned)]...

However, the first part of 8a's post has it's 'heart' in the right place. A lot of sporting facilities, forums, co-orporations etc 'turn a blind eye' to athletes who are leading very unhealthy lives in an attempt to 'better' their sporting careers. Since the mentioned 'disease' is such a 'hot topic' through local and global media I'm surprised almost every single reply to this post has been so extremely negative... only focusing on the last part of 8a's post...

Yes, it definately was not the best idea but there was no real indication that they were going to 'push' for it to happen... As I interpreted it, 8a was just putting the word out there... geez so many angry people on the internet!

OffLine Bongowurm
  2008-06-06 07:32:04    
This is embarassing for 8a. I hope that I don't see this on the front page the next time I log on.

Pointing out the sacrificies that are part of high-end difficulty climbing and advocating a healthy lifestyle is good enough. Judging climber's bodies like this is not. Plus, I don't think most 8a users are so worried about competition climbing. This is almost enough to send me elsewhere permanently.
OffLine ELDani
  2008-06-06 07:37:11    
I think its now time to leave this site. Ou ou ou Boys don`t speak about lifestyle when you have no idea behind this topic. So you would that for example Dave Graham can`t be in the Ranking??? Becaus he has no Lifestyle??? When his lifestyle is not enough then you can kick out all the climbers. Becaus he`s thiny?? So What its ok when he feel`s ok and strong enough. And he defintly does.
OffLine ELDani
  2008-06-06 07:37:13    
I think you would do everything that chris sharma is in the Ranking,
OffLine Anna Gatta (f)
  2008-06-06 07:51:18    
8a: The best way to clean up this mess and save your reputation could be to connect professional doctors to 8a where people with eating disorders, who want help, can contact a doctor anonymously via 8a. A licensed doctor specialized in anorexia linked to sport performances. It is good to react, but not by the way you suggested.
OffLine indigo
  2008-06-06 08:49:12    
Are you naiv? I mean the people responding to that crap? Come on, its so obvious, Jens isn't stupid and he has done it before, he is just provoking this discussion to induce participation of the community.

I actually have a much better idea: What's causing the climber's anorexia? Imho (yeah, my HUMBLE opinion) it's partly the pressure from outside, sponsors, competitions, high expectations from whoever and .... THE 8A.NU RANKINGS ...

This site as a news and community thingy is cool and enjoyable, but the rankings are ridiculous. People take it way to serious and it's totally incorrect anyway. There is like 10 people around here in Frankenjura who boulder better than me but don't take part. It's a joke.

Get rid of the rankings!!!
OffLine Iñigo de Santiago
  2008-06-06 09:20:14    
Maybe 8a wanted to do something similiar to the situation of the models in Spain, where the models can´t work if they have a BMI less than X (I don´t know the figure)
OffLine User Deactivated
  2008-06-06 09:22:06    

should smokers be banned from this site? everybody who drinks too much alcohol?


everybody is responsible for his own body. if someone risks health damage....it's still his or her decision.

and a BMI>22 doesn't mean that someone is fat. at least i´m not fat.....huahaha

OffLine Rumen Neshev
  2008-06-06 09:26:14    
i'm far from anorectic, but the first thing i'll do now is to make all my ascents as logs.
no more ranking
OffLine User Deactivated
  2008-06-06 09:33:45    

also boulderers can't be banned. Normally boulderers are a little bit heavier than route-climbers and they take the risk of damaging their fingers......

if someones has pressure from his or her sponsor than he has the wrong sponsor. get sponsort for climbing and don't climb for sponsoring

OffLine Leon du Toit
  2008-06-06 10:31:00    

"...8a feels..." 

'8a' has 'feelings'? tripe.


 

OffLine Txomo
  2008-06-06 10:52:45    
Chris Sharma's weight is 71 - 75 kg. This gives the 184 cm tall, and
probably the best climber in the world, a BMI index of 21.6.

I'm 180cm tall and Sharma is shorter than me.  If you don't know how tall is him, and probably don't know what's is his weight... why are you saying these ridiculous things?
OffLine Pano .
  2008-06-06 11:25:50    
he he he - never seen so many emotional reactions to such a silly suggestion.. it makes me think that there are a few people who should be eating more so they don't get so crancky ha ha ;-)
OffLine Jacob Stærk
  2008-06-06 11:45:08    
Many emotional responses indeed. Hope this isn't just a provocative stunt - that would be low, low, low.

Obviously bulimia and anorexia are serious issues within the climbing community. Weight/performance ratio + obsessive personal ambitions equals great challenges for the individual. But they are exactly that  - challenges for the individual.

It sucks to see, what could be a great global community, polluted with things like theese, and the problem, the same as always: 8a's overtly paternalistic editorial tone.

Don't be provocative, if not for the milleau then for the brand (i.e revenue). And don't be paternalistic, be humble and brave, be inspiring.

I thought Anna's idea of connecting a specialist was great.

Keep it sober.

Jacob.

OffLine John Meget
  2008-06-06 12:17:14    
I was thinking it would be a good idea to disqualify people who don't agree with me.  They obviously are sick and twisted and unfit to take part in these rankings. 
OffLine Ian Maffett
  2008-06-06 13:09:30    
Don't even try to suggest an intelligent decision to the crew at 8a.nu, they are hard headed as to what they view is "correct".

If you don't agree, let their sponsors know.  8a has written many irresponsible posts about various subjects, but this is just unacceptable.

-- from a NON-eating disorder climber who the site implies has one.
OffLine jones
  2008-06-06 14:11:20    

Where are "all these anorectic climbers" ? I've never seen them,  and if you are really anorectic you wouldn't even have the strenght to get up a 5a and top performances would be out of the question,  There will always be skinny people (genetically determined) and just healthy living I guess

OffLine Felipe Pontes
  2008-06-06 15:02:46    
   I've never seen an anorexic climber either... But besides that, it's tragicomical to see how 8a is getting more and more frivolous by the date... As the site get's more popular you guys should invest your effort in bringing good content to your frontpage. Instead every day we get more and more frivolous statements, like this one, or sensationalist crap.
  If you look back on every news given on the frontpage on the past month every bit of information has to be sensationalized. It isn't enough to say that a dude climbed a 9a with 9 fingers, he has to be the first, or the only, or the best... always... stick to what you know, it's amazing enough...
  To finish, it's very akward how 8a manage to squeeze Chris Sharma's name on everything! Stop that! He's good, but there are tons of more interesting content to be gathered...

OffLine Matthew Redyns
  2008-06-06 16:14:53    
it's just a constant stream of stupid insane statements that 8a admin. makes. Ya'll are slow adults.  Who cares what the austrains do?  when have they even done anything significant?  who is austria?  it's not like they're somehwere revered like your Sweeden or more significantly, 22nd & Norris, Philly.  Don't fuck with north philly. 
OffLine Rocky Marciano
  2008-06-06 18:53:59    
Im fucking fat does it matter?? should i be disqualified???
OOKOKOK seriously  one of the  main reasons i login here is to  watch  the climbing news and interesting articles  but  lately we have seen lots  of  polemic articles and some other weird non sence news that makes this site looks like yellow journalism.pls stop dont  want to see next time, Assault at Rifle, death  found at Céüse, etc
Whats  going on people  i  suggest to think twice before publish  this kind of .....  that obviously  grows nothing but constructive.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2008-06-06 20:02:35    
3rd and indiana. north philly represent
OffLine Emanuele Pellizzari
  2008-06-06 20:50:37    
Thumb up.
Yes, I have seen a quite high number of very skinny climbers. When "skinny" is "too skinny", I don't know.
For all the people claiming they are skinny and they eat a lot, have them to eat with me, to see if they eat "something". That's talking craps.
Stop talking and face that there are anorexic climbers for the reason to be strong climbers.
Ciao,
Emanuele
173 cm for 70 km. Sharma is super skinny compared to me.

OffLine Rudi Moroder
  2008-06-06 20:50:59    
I think this discussion is important and not ridiculous. I know some anorexic climber, but I also think that it is impossible for a website to delate the scorecard of a climber. Thats ridiculous.

And it is strange that there are only a few ladies involved in the discussion
OffLine Pippi
  2008-06-06 21:23:33    
hey all you guys what are you afraid of???
if a topic gets so much attention, it must be moving more people than they admit !

for sure it makes no sense to cancel the scorecards of anorectic climbers - but its very important to talk about this problem in sports where weight has an inflluence (skijump, ballet, biking, and so on) and to make rules for the competitiors.
An anorectic himself doesn't see the problem...

Specially for young climbers its very dangerous to spoil their health!
the damages are sometimes seen only decades later (for example Osteoporose).


And don't tell that somebody with Cancer/ Hyperthyreosis/ Crohn's/ Pfeiffer's Drüsenfieber or what ever IS HEALTHY - HE'S ILL !!!

And as far as i know, BMI is for adults (somebody mentioned A.Ondra)
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2008-06-06 21:28:43    

It seems like most of the comments are based on a miss-understanding. We have not said that we are going to ban or delete any members or take them out of the rankings. We have asked the community if we, "Should make a recommendation...".


I guess, the reason for such miss-understanding is based on that the first comments stated that we were going to bandelete etc...and then when reading this miss-understanding, it becomes the truth.

However, 8a will not make a BMI-recommendation as the community has underlined this very sharp.

OffLine James O'Connor
  2008-06-06 22:38:24    

Well honestly Jens thank you for the rational reply and not being too stubborn but I think the back lash came from:

"8a feels that such climbers should not be part of the scorecard and the ranking as we do not want to promote this type of lifestyle" 

Does not sound like a suggestion, and can be insulting.

OffLine Jens Larssen
  2008-06-06 23:19:27    

"8a feels" = This means it is not a suggestion neither a recommendation but a feeling


"such climbers" = refering to anorectic climbers


@ James and others - Let us say that the #1 person in the 8a ranking is anorectic. (WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY NOTM THE CASE!) This means that we are talking about a person who  has a fear of gaining weight, self-starvation, and a distorted view of body image. 

The problems include a reduced rate of growth, dental problems, constipation, stomach rupture, anemia (see anemia entry), loss of kidney function, heart problems, and osteoporosis (weakening of the bones; see osteoporosis entry).

Personally, I do not think such climbers should be part of the ranking. I would feel sad both for the person and the climbing community to report news and make interviews with such climbers.

However, anorexia is in normal cases way below BMI 17.

OffLine David Lee
  2008-06-06 23:55:33    
I think people should relax a bit... To the gentleman that referenced Hitler, please see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

To the rest, 8a is bringing up a good point. It is a problem that occurs in many sports including wrestling and gymnastics, to name a few. The very nature of these sports and climbing give people a valid performance-based incentive to minimize body weight. While most of us are fortunate enough to approach this rationally, there will always be those that succumb to the mental pressures and lose grip with reality.

Climbing magazine has run a series of articles recently that focus on the high prevalence of depression amongst climbers, 8a is trying to do the same with anorexia. Although the abstract nature of a rankings-based internet website makes it difficult to apply tastefully. Instead of blowing the author's comments out of proportion it would be better if people would take a moment to reflect on this plight and take it as inspiration to help a friend in need should they exist. If you don't know any anorexic climbers then be thankful. If you still need to say something, give advice on how to approach such people.

I have only begun climbing this year but have found the community to be very supportive and friendly. A fact that has drawn me to the sport even more. I would hope people would take something positive from the fact that 8a is actually 'thinking' about these issues instead of spitting vitriolic abuse.
OffLine Andrea
  2008-06-07 00:55:41    

Jens, I think naming someone, especially a high level athlete (let us say that the #1 person in the 8a ranking is anorexic) as anorexic is very unprofessional. This website is probably the most viewed climbing site that exists on the web and naming names on such a popular forum is disrespectful.


Maybe one way 8a could help this situation is promoting climbers (especially through images) that have a healthy body. When people are used to seeing these healthy body types, they beleive that this is normal and the best for their climbing.  

OffLine Crista Hollenberg (f)
  2008-06-07 01:58:59    
"And don't tell that somebody with Cancer/ Hyperthyreosis/ Crohn's/ Pfeiffer's Drüsenfieber or what ever IS HEALTHY - HE'S ILL !!!"

I never said they were healthy, just you should never make assumptions about one's weight status.

I think having a BMI limit without validation ( i.e. medical diagnosis) is discrimination. I mean, come on... how many of you look at a skinny climber and just assume they're anorexic?

Have these anorexic Austrian climbers been diagnosed by a doctor, or are the limits based solely on BMI?
OnLine Milky "Bonerack" Williams
  2008-06-07 04:26:03    
Wait a second.....Which world famous climber has been lying on his scorecard?  I'm refusing to move on to the next shitstorm until the last one has been settled.   You better be careful "stirring the pot" like this Jens.  Those North Philly boys sound pissed.  One of them even said "Represent".  Yikes!
OffLine John
  2008-06-07 06:52:19    
Jens ,

You should do what you think is right.  Don't worry about what a bunch of scoundrels think. Please do what you can to discourage anorexia, eating disorders, mental illness etc......

While your at it, make an effort to curb marijuana use in the climbing community. Please kick the marijuana users out of the scorecard rankings.

John Keane
OffLine Infinity
  2008-06-07 08:41:09    
I do not mean to support anorexia in any forms, indeed, I have talked a few of my friends into seeking help for their own eating disorders, but need I remind you guys that we in the U.S. find ourselves with less and less money, and some choose to put rent before food, some need to put more stomachs than their own in mind when buying grocieries, and a persons own build, even when they climb, can sometimes only be altered by weeks of work due to time contraints, other physical stresses, and bad diet. If you do so choose to put such a restriction on climbing, you are no better than many of tbe hate groups that exist, and should your site choose to enlist such a regulation, I will be finding a new site to post my climbs, and I won't be the only one. You want to combat a disease, talk about the people that are succeeding at normal, or above normal weights. But really think about what you guys are doing in combatting only anorexia, and yet I haven't seen any access fund or even ad's emphasizing the importance of following laws on posted climbs, and respecting national and international monuments, these are also important, as are those dying and injuring themselves due to a lack of proper training or experience, these newcomers to our field need to be helped to push us all further, not left to fall so we may shine in experience.
OffLine Seth Robinson
  2008-06-07 09:58:11    
Aaaaah SHIT!! Why didn't someone tell me getting skinny was against the 8a Rules? What the hell am I gonna do now?
If you ban us, you betta ban dem damn pot-smokin hippies too!!

Idiots, all.
OffLine Iziii
  2008-06-07 17:56:23    
well....i like 8a news ... but this post really pissed me off...it's really embarassing
...from
now on i will try to upload only pictures where i look fat enough to not get
banned from this site...did you guys get hacked or something?




OnLine M Hector
  2008-06-07 19:45:58    
And let us not forget the potential benefits of a calorie restricted diet...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/31/health/nutrition/31agin.html

There is a difference between skinny and anorexic.
OffLine Anna Frimodig
  2008-06-07 21:04:27    
Having looked at this idea and also at the table from Austria, I find this kind of strange. I'm 160 cm, 48 kilos, and... 46 years... I'm eating what I want, including pizza, hamburgers, ice-cream etc. I'm climbing 6c, maybe a 7a that suits my style perfetly, but not harder. This has only to do with lack of technique, not weight.  Everyone who has seen me can agree I look more strong than skinny, and I'm sure not without normal body fat.

The point? Well, without going for the big titles or high grades, one can be looking normal and healthy and not being so heavy on the scale. We're all individuals. Please look more at energy level and if needed, take blood samples to look at the proper nutrition level. But don't ban people who eat healthy and also enjoys the good in life just because they're not heavy enough!

PS I guess a good idea would be to ask a profesional sports doctor, (like Dr8a who has a place on the Swedish forum-part), or the different doctors working with the national teams about their opinions here on 8a?
OffLine andy
  2008-06-07 22:47:58    
lmao! Wow, the funniest part of this is that 8a is actually taking this approach so seriously. And from the most recent news post, they're going out of their way to try and defend their precious idea.
OffLine BB
  2008-06-08 05:07:02    
WOW! good thing I'm fat now from what I've been told, I know my scores are safe.
OffLine Marco de Boer
  2008-06-16 00:32:04    

Jens (and others),


 


Very good point. I think you are on to something here. Of course people with too low BMI are sad and sick. And they spoil the sport of climbing and therefor hurt the climbing community.


People who are using drugs are also sad and sick. If you can think of a clever way to remove there scorecards you would be doing the climbing community a great service.


While we are at it, people who are browsing on the internet for child pornography or bestiality porn are also very sad and sick. Please remove their scorecards as well.


 


In fact remove all the scorecards. Except for your own, Sharma's and mine ofcourse. Since I am a person who you can trust. My BMI is 22.4 and I don't do drugs. You can check with my ISP for my internet behavior.


 

OffLine David Eisenstadt
  2008-06-20 16:04:26    
Like I said about the australian rules

"I
have a low bmi, (14) being a short,and skinny 8th grader. I eat perfect
food no empty calories. I eat 3 FULL meals a day, and a lot of it, too.
I have and extremely fast metabolism, and usually burn off a lot of
wieght training, conditioning, ect. at the gym *floridian*.  I don't
think 8a.nu OR any climbing association should discriminate against
people like me.  Same thing with those with a BMI higher than 17. 
It's  extremely irrational to force people to lose  wieght to compete!
I think the idea off making people wiegh a certain wieght is
thoughtless. It would really disappoint me if 8a.nu would even consider
applying this plan to itself."

  Are actually serious about doing this? It's pathetic! How can you go  to steep so low as to only allow people to join if they have a BMI of 17? Did you even think about this before you posted it? Just to inform you, Anorexia is a mental disorder. You can wiegh 300lb and be Anorexic. It wouldn't be fair to kick all of us who don't wish to lose/gain wieght! I love this website, and would be inraged if I got booted off of it because I don't wiegh enough.
OffLine Joakim Thommesen
  2008-07-15 10:21:23    
It's not a very good idea to exclude people on the basis of their BMI, but how can anyone claim that they're healthy with a BMI less than 17??

A BMI less than 17 means that a person 1.79 m high would weigh 54 or less. How that can be "perfectly healthy" is beyond me.

Get a grip.
OffLine Tomaz Kosir
  2008-07-15 12:25:43    
Guys! Should you want to inform people and fight against "promotion" of anorexia through climbing, than you should choose the right way! It is positive that you point that out, but the way you choose is the proof that you don't know anything about media power (and this website is media!). Scorecards are fun, usable for some, unusable for others, but people are not here just because of it. Far from that! You could choose to publish an article, two, three about this problem, build them on real stories and promote healthy lifestyle. If you pointed out Chris Sharma, eask him for an interview regarding this topic. Let Chris explain how he sees it and how much he eats..etc.. Or maybe you should ask Katie Brown about it. That would be an interesting story... Young climbers should have their rolemodels and you can play a role in the process of rolemodels buildup - through editorial decisons, not by stupid rules to just eliminate people based on their body. You can be the one to show youngsters what is cool and what not. This works much better than rules, belive me...

Rules should maybe only be implemented in competitions level. Organizers and associations should have their rules regarding minimum weights etc.. this is what most competition sports are practising. Without it we would already have lots of anorexic ski jumpers, but we don't as they can't compeet if they are out of the limits...
OffLine Pascal Heger
  2008-07-15 16:23:38    

Today's news headlines:


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/dangerously-thin-climbers-face-ban-867625.html

OffLine diviana
  2009-10-20 14:15:29    

I'm anorectic, but my BMI
is perfectly normal now (20,5). I still don't eat like I should and
can't train like I would like to, because I have to watch my weight
and I'm still weaker than I should be. So, are my ascents valid or
not?



I understand that anorexia
is an issue, but I don't think climbers should be banned because they
suffer form an eating disorder... That's just ridiculous and can
really do them more harm than good.

OffLine Jens Larssen
  2009-10-20 14:26:15    
I am sorry that you are anorectic. If you read the news, we only asked as to give a BMI recommendation as anorexia is a problem among climbers. In fact, Austria has a regulation but 8a do not ban anybody. Good luck!
OnLine PancakeDyno
  2009-11-06 00:41:14    
Completely inappropriate to ban someone because of an eating disorder. I do not understand the logic of penalizing someone who has anorexia.
OnLine PancakeDyno
  2009-11-06 00:41:20    
Completely inappropriate to ban someone because of an eating disorder. I do not understand the logic of penalizing someone who has anorexia.
OffLine gerardo workel
  2009-11-06 04:20:30    
in fact im 16 years old 1.80 52kg and im perfectly healthy. i eat a lot but a lot but i just dont get fatter or gain weight that is how my body is, you can not only say your bmi is lower thn 17 than you are anorectic that is stupid
OffLine Steve Lewis
  2009-11-10 17:27:18    
Interesting idea.

Anorexia is a serious illness. Amongst non-climbers is often more to do with having control over one's life, perhaps caused by having very controlling parents.

In climbing it seems to stem from just being over obsessed with climbing hard. Losing weight is fastest and easiest way to get finger strength.

In the early 1980s one the UK's top climbers was rumoured to be anorexic. Apparently he was so weak from dieting he had to be carried to the crag sometimes - according to the rumours.

Back then the routes were often more endurance oriented. When Jerry Moffatt came to prominence with his emphasis on the importance of power in climbing, from what I could tell, the anorexic tendency (if that is the right term) went away.

You certainly can't say someone is anorexic based solely on their percentage of body fat though. Anorexia is more of a mental thing rather than physical. It's possible to get to virtually zero body fat and still be healthy.
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-10 17:39:55    
Anorexia is a big problem in the world and it is actually quite common in climbing, especially among top climbers.

How can this eating disorder be reduced among climbers? Austria have a regualtion and IFSC is discussing to have one. 8a have discussed a BMI recommendation but NOT a ban, but we give low priority publishing ascents for anorectic climbers. Personally I care, since I have had an anorectic girlfriend.

Do you have any better ideas to reduce the anorexia among climbers? That is better than just complaining of what 8a try to do.

@ gerardo: There does not exist any adults who are 180 cm with 52 kg, who are perfectely healthy.
OffLine Marten Knobloch
  2009-11-10 18:07:47    
I want fatty grades :)
So everyone with a normal BMI of 22 and above gets an 8a+ instead of an 8a if he climbs Anabolica. (example)
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-10 19:28:00    
Anorexia means you eat almost NOTHING AT ALL and are on the verge of starvation and/or death. And I don't see how that would actually help your climbing because you would be really weak...

BUT if you eat nothing but raw foods like seeds, berries and veggies you will be very skinny and very healthy. Then you are not starving yourself you are simply a 'raw vegan.' Raw vegans don't eat anything cooked, only nuts, berries, fruits, veggies ect. and they are extremely healthy.

Once you stop overeating and start eating raw foods your blood sugar will be more stable and it will take less food to make you full. Basically your body becomes more efficent as a diet of oats and berries will sustain your blood sugar for longer than meats and fatty foods do.

Just my two cents.


OffLine Devlin Gandy
  2010-01-05 12:14:31    
I got into this thing a bit late but,

Jens, I honestly think you are a troll sometimes or (in this case) ignoring basic information on BMI and its inherent failures due to negative life experiences which lead towards emotional responses versus logical ones...

I am also disturbed austria would have BMI stipulations on competitors...

I mean 52kg at 180cm is an acceptable weight for certain body types. not all, but certainly in the normal range-remember human beings are very diverse.

I mean, what about Adam Ondra's BMI?!

last time i checked he grew 3cm from 2004 to 2008 yet lost 2 kg, shouldn't you be downplaying his sends? I mean, that seems to me like he's anorexic.

and his current listed height weight of 180 & 58 kg puts him only 3 kg from disqualification, and I lost that much weight last time i got the flu....

but back to your female emphasis, for girls 17 and under, BMI stipulations pretty much immediately disqualify most top or up and coming female climbers, not because they are anorexic as you seem to think but because they are healthy and growing still....

think katie brown

OffLine Jens Larssen
  2010-01-05 16:19:24    
The article ends with, "Should we make a recommendation of BMI > 17, for scorecard users?"

Why do you talk about a disqualification of Ondra who has an BMI of 18+?

Austria has a BMI of 17 for competing internationally and IFSC is discussing to have some kind of regulation.
OffLine Devlin Gandy
  2010-01-06 10:20:08    
Ondra, according to stats from numerous interviews findable on google has a BMI between 17.6-9, not 18+ And between 2004 and 2009 lost 3-4 kg of weight while still growing in height. If we are to be critical of anorexia-especially in top athletes-this seems to show selective eating habits since he should not logically be losing weight while he gets taller.

and though the article does end with that caveat "Should we make a recommendation of BMI > 17, for scorecard users?", my response lies in what you said, "Personally, I do not think such climbers should be part of the ranking. I would feel sad both for the person and the climbing community to report news and make interviews with such climbers." And that statement bothered me, since due to 8a, you have power in the climbing community.

and i am still disgusted with the bureaucratic side of climbing, and BMI stipulations are something i can't agree with, chiefly because they are rough estimates, not sound science, so to disqualify people unless they overeat doesn't seem fair to me. Granted its supposed to "help" those with problems, but they are responsible for themselves at some point, and it isn't fair to climbers who are naturally thin and being treated as inferiors because of it.

basically, i disagree with "otherism" (in the Ralph Waldo Emerson sense, not in the altruistic sense), and BMI is otherism.




OffLine Jens Larssen
  2010-01-06 11:01:04    
Meanwhile you refer to Google I know Adam and have met him several times during the last time including having several meals with him...and he eats like a horse! To state that he lost 3-4 kg between 2004 when he was 11 and 2009 is just complete nonsense. I guess he instead gained 20+ kg.

In the first 8a Adam Ondra interview in 2004, he is 159 cm and 40 kg.

Based on your statement that he lost 3-4 kg the last five years, he would have been 37 kg today.
OffLine Sam Jensen
  2010-01-07 01:14:55    
Three things.
One- underweight is 18.4 or lower; therefore with the stats on Adam Ondras page he is underweight, with a BMI of 17.9(+-3).
Two- being underweight does not mean that someone is anorexic which you are implicating with this suggestion.
Three- your defense of Adam by saying that you see him eat a ton yet (as shown) he is still underweight proves the point trying to be made by the majority of the community, that a lower limit base upon BMI is utterly useless. As by your own admition

Now, because he is an athelete and young the BMI measurement system stops being effective and he may not be unhealthy (nor does simply being underweight make someone unhealthy). You clearly have no understanding of the frailaty of BMI measurement and that it is intended to be a simple way to judge basic health of the GENERAL population, not atheletes. Because of this the measurement are adjusted for people whom live a sedentary or mildy active lifestyle and thus accumuate subcutatious (under the skin) fat. This is not nessesary in any way for heathy living (only provides insulation) only visceral fat (in the body cavity supporting organs) is nessesary for healthy living. The BMI ranges take into account a larger than nessesary amount of both types of fat; where as atheletes often only have the nessesary amount because of training.

Your example of Chris Sharma only works because he is geneticly predisposed to accumulate muscle not just strengthen it where as a lot of people are not (see Dave Graham who does not have a lot of muscle mass and yet sends with the best). This is the only reason why he has a BMI of 22 not 17 like Adam.

OffLine Sam Jensen
  2010-01-07 01:14:58    
Three things.
One- underweight is 18.4 or lower; therefore with the stats on Adam Ondras page he is underweight, with a BMI of 17.9(+-3).
Two- being underweight does not mean that someone is anorexic which you are implicating with this suggestion.
Three- your defense of Adam by saying that you see him eat a ton yet (as shown) he is still underweight proves the point trying to be made by the majority of the community, that a lower limit base upon BMI is utterly useless. As by your own admition

Now, because he is an athelete and young the BMI measurement system stops being effective and he may not be unhealthy (nor does simply being underweight make someone unhealthy). You clearly have no understanding of the frailaty of BMI measurement and that it is intended to be a simple way to judge basic health of the GENERAL population, not atheletes. Because of this the measurement are adjusted for people whom live a sedentary or mildy active lifestyle and thus accumuate subcutatious (under the skin) fat. This is not nessesary in any way for heathy living (only provides insulation) only visceral fat (in the body cavity supporting organs) is nessesary for healthy living. The BMI ranges take into account a larger than nessesary amount of both types of fat; where as atheletes often only have the nessesary amount because of training.

Your example of Chris Sharma only works because he is geneticly predisposed to accumulate muscle not just strengthen it where as a lot of people are not (see Dave Graham who does not have a lot of muscle mass and yet sends with the best). This is the only reason why he has a BMI of 22 not 17 like Adam.

Look at any sport which promotes high muscle mass like football or weightlifting. Most football players are in the overweight to obese 1 category (BMI 25-34) yet would you say that they are obese or overweight? Would you say they are unheathly? The same applys to climbing where muscle mass is not favored and thus is gained in limited amounts.
OffLine Jens Larssen
  2010-01-07 09:48:59    
BMI is NOT perfect but the best easy method out there. This is the reason why the Austria climbing federation is using it and many other federation like the Ski Jumping federation.

8a has only asked a question the the community, "Should we make a recommendation of BMI > 17, for scorecard users?"

Whay are you so negative?