Flash?

This is a tricky question. In route climbing you can touch all the holds you reach from the ground also onsighting. I could make a poll if and feel free to suggest alternatives. From a personal point of view I think you can touch all the holds you reach from the starting position. I mean, otherwise you can touch all the holds and feel the positions on a low traverse as long as you have one foot on the ground.

i think this is okay. even if others say "not allowed". i think the most important thing is if you are happy with this and you can accept it as "flash". if not then not. its just your personal feeling about it. if others asked about the way you did it und if you have no problem to say that you touched the holds before then say knows about your definition about "flash". its your freedom :)

well for me it is flash and I´m happy with it ;) just wanted to know how the opinion of other climbers are, maybe I should rethink my opinion... @ jens: i agree with the starting position thing, don´t use a rope/ladder or similar, this would be beyond "flash" (for me at least) But what about pro climbers, if they climb a 8B flash.... are there "rules" developed by common sense of the pros? what do they think? I mean a hard flash is connected with sponsoring, money, fame etc...

@ Kinson: I think climbers to some extent use different ethics. 8a has tried to discuss and suggest ethics especially for route climbing. I will make a poll to see what the community thinks. What about something like this? Are you allowed to touch all holds you can reach doing sit starts or traverses in boulder flashes? YES, as long as one foot is on the ground You can touch all holds you reach from the starting position NO, just touching the start holds

I agree with you guys. touching stuff you can reach from the ground is ok with me, just don't put a lot of weight on it (semi-hanging). I wouldn't dispute your flash that way. I'd applaud you for being able to make your moves work straight away !

@grubber: So do you think that you can touch all the holds on a traverse? I do not think so.

@grubber: touch, but not put load on them. sure. in my opinion, that's one reason why traverses have a softer grading scale. you can work sections easier, and for me that extends to being able to touch more holds before your first try..

If you stick to the definiton of flash ("prior knowledge" of the route/boulder without having tried it) it should be ok to touch all you can reach. But if you see the prior knowledge just in Betainfos and not in information you physically feel then not....

Touching all holds flashing a sit start or traverse?

Prior discussions regarding onsight or flash in bouldering... http://web.8a.nu/forum/ViewForumThread.aspx?ObjectId=32045&ObjectClass=CLS_ForumGeneral&CountryCode=GLOBAL http://8a.nu/forum/ViewForumThread.aspx?ObjectId=32549&ObjectClass=CLS_ForumGeneral&CountryCode=GLOBAL

Why is there no onsight possible in bouldering? I don't agree... Look at comps. Not allowed to touch the holds (except the starting hold), and you are limited to a visual inspection of the other holds only.  Imagine being outside with your buddies where you are the first to climb a boulder in your first attempt without prior knowledge of the moves. They have already seen what you have done (beta) and rightfully claim a "flash" by repeating the moves you came up with.. Is it fair that your ascent wasn't an onsight because it supposedly doesn't exist in bouldering?Different levels of effort deserve a different name. An onsight in bouldering does exist for me.

I also think it is possible to onsight a boulder just like they do in World Cups. However, the bonus points for the score is just 95 points instead of the 145 points you get for a route. I also think that the same touching "rules" should apply for flash and for onsight.5

as for me, i think that flash only is possible if u touch the srarting holds as at comps.... if u can see all the holds from the ground (traverse 4 ex.) it's flash as well.... mates from my gym and me consider that it's hardly possible to onsight the route in the gym (mostly its a flash) as u can see mostly of the holds from the ground or u just know how to grip those holds(familiar to them) of course if it's your 1st time in that gym or it's just too high so that to see the end of the route it may be considered as on sight.... to be honest,sometimes i start to think is it true os for me, when i climb up the route through the chalk path) so , as for me, true os is possible only at vertical slabs,where rain can demolish all chalk tips))) of course,imho)

How can we be discussing this? Off course, you cannot work out the moves, even if you have a foot or two on the ground, and claim a flash or onsight afterwards.

@ A0: As you can see from the poll, most voters actually think you can touch and therefor try all the moves as long as you have one foot one the ground.

Of course, if they had to be under the rules, they would have to say, bye, bye, to all onsighted and flashed boulders they did. You are giving them the chance to change the meaning of a style because your answer is laying on their opinion but not in the definition of the style. Flash has a proper definition and all over the history climbers kept under such definition to claim flash routes and boulders. Nowadays, some people work the moves with a foot on the ground but this is another style, it can never be called flash or onsight style, as they get their own experience working the moves.

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" you can touch and therefor try all the moves " - why is touching the holds the same as trying the moves?

If you do not touch the holds, you do not try the route. This is a fact. On the other hand, if you touch the holds sequecely you are working out the moves, aren´t you?

@ Batu: As long as you have one kilogram on your foot...you touch and try all the holds...I think this is wrong when it is done systematically.