Forum: GLOBAL / News / 9a? by Enzo Oddo (15) Login in to contribute
9a? by Enzo Oddo (15)
  2009-11-05 00:00:00    
Joey Kinder reports "After spending a week in Font and doing his first 8a boulder and then his first 8b boulder… Enzo Oddo completed Inga 9a at Deverse. This is a sit-start-boulder problem around 8b that links into the route 7pm Chaud 8c." Is it OK to name, grade and report sitt-starts to routes?
OffLine Pippa Planques
  2009-11-05 19:28:37    
It depends on how long the sit start adds to the route. Imagine that
the foot of the cliff goes deep into a sort of low-ceiling cave...
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-06 09:26:15    
Obviously, it is good training for Enzo but quality wise, I do not think you should name and grade sitt-starts on routes. It is just to report to the world, - Look, what I have done! Imagine, this would be the first 9c!It would non make any sense.

It is like the traverse bouldering ended where it started. It is graded and reported just to show the world how hard you were able to climb.

If we were to think sitt-starts would add to routes, we would have thousands in just one year, changing the whole scene.
OffLine sidney shaw
  2009-11-06 10:09:38    
Wait a second.

I understand Enzo linked a boulder problem with a route, not that he decided to sit-start a route.

Furthermore, is it not what Dani Andrada did on Picacho in Rodellar? There's a video about it: he climbs a boulder problem, wears a harness and goes. But.. you wouldn't say Dani does it just to show off - like you Jens speculates about Enzo -would you?

Just say he is not your superhero, it is a bit less childish than your desperate attempt to give a technical-ethical-whatevereelse justification of why you ignored him.
OnLine Miha
  2009-11-06 10:35:00    
I don't see why sit-starting a route shouldn't be recognized as a legit style of ascent. Specially where it's "logical" to link a boulder start to an established route.
Jens what about all the routes that start on platforms made of rocks. Doesn't it make more sense (as you put it) to try to do it like Enzo? There will always be climbers pushing the limits. Don't try to shoot them down for doing their own thing. Its all about freedom and creativity not about rigit made-up rules stating us what to or not to do.

OnLine tadzys
  2009-11-06 12:11:06    
"Is it OK to name, grade and report sitt-starts to routes?"

I think Joe (not Joey) can report what ever he wants on his blog.
OffLine gianluca
  2009-11-06 15:05:46    
It
is like the traverse bouldering ended where it started. It is graded
and reported just to show the world how hard you were able to climb.

the more i see videos of boulder-route caves (hollow mountain, parisella's, etc etc), the less i understand what you have against them. They look cool, they often seem to involve a more clever and varied action than say a 45 degree wall, they provide the possibility of climbing many many meters rope-free. It is rare to find anything "easy" in that style, but when i did it was great fun.
 
and don't say you really really like that stuff and it's just a problem of grading scales, because this comment shows more than just an opinion on grades. Reading you it looks like one would fly to the grampians only because he/she can maybe tick a hard linkup in the hollow mountain cave, and not because, in first place, it looks unreal.

Nor you belong to those who say that the hardest routes and boulders should contain the hardest moves, if not you would have heavily criticized sharma for "jumbo love" (and you did not).

You just seem to be driven by this desire/need to categorize everything, you are disappointed by "hybrids" because they don't fit your rigid mental categories and you don't know how to report them, yet you seem to make an effort of being flexible when there is a big and friendly name involved.
I remember no open criticism on dani andrada who must have proposed a dozen (i exxagerate) of rope, ropeless and hybrid combinations in the alibaba cave, yet you expressed yourself against variations/combinations and now you express yourself against boulder+rope linkups.

you demonstrate to be old (in the fact that you are not flexible and open to accept nuances, you want all ascents to be the same).
And at the same time, you are so servile to a few selected athletes, that you will praise them even if they do what you criticize the most.
I can imagine that if sharma went to uk tomorrow and just for the sake of pissing you off he downclimbed to the ground in an onsight attempt, left the rope clipped in 4 pieces of gear, decided to add a sitstart, finally topped it out grabbing a massive tree, and claimed an onsight FA with an E-system grade, you would celebrate the ascent in your news, as if you had never ever expressed a position against downclimbing on onsights, sitstart extensions to rope climbs, pulling vegetable matter, and E grades.
OffLine sidney shaw
  2009-11-06 16:03:27    
Gianluca: brilliant!

Don't forget Chris' acent should be on a heavily chipped and drilled and full of artificial grips, but the grade is not so high to justify them, let's say only 9a/9a+/9b/9b+ as Chris would suggest: SLASHHHHHHH!
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-06 18:44:48    
http://www.nice-climb.com/news2/show_news.php?id_news=596

This seat start adds 20 moves and in 2002, when Daï Koyamada sent the first ascent, nobody complained about this.
(maybe Jens was playing another game)

This link is definitely logic, as when you finish the "boulder/traverse" you're right in the start of 7pm or PuntX !

Climbing is a game, to push your limits !
Adding moves, on the top or in the start is just a way to go further...
It's just the "essence" of free climbing !
It's just like a "directissime", starting where you can start to climb !

The problem is that Enzo has a scorecard here...
But he did'nt care about updating it !
Maybe because of me ;-)
OffLine Christian Mengel
  2009-11-06 19:26:02    
if enzo was doing a proper job of getting jens more traffic and new record hits, things would be different...
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-06 19:34:44    
Of course Christian, and maybe he could receive some shareHolds from 8a.inc for free...
Who knows !?
OffLine Gabor Szekely
  2009-11-06 19:36:27    
INGA isnt a "sit start" to a route.. it links a logical 20 move long boulder problem out a roof, right into the start of the 8c.. True it isnt the most spectacular route at Deverse, but saying that it shouldnt be reported/considered a route is very narrow-minded. Jens, how can you already have an opinion of the route if you've never even seen it or tried the moves ?

"It is graded and reported just to show the world how hard you were able to climb." What is that supposed to mean ? Isnt that why every route is graded and reported, to show the world how hard it is and how hard you climb ?

I think you should really double-think things before you jump to drastic conclusions. Based on everyone's opinion that has tried this route, it is definitely a valid, difficult, and logical route.

Why do you always have to make an ethical argument out of unique boulders and routes ? People climb unobvious, low-quality link ups all the time (I'm not saying INGA is one, just making a point).. but as soon as its a harder one it is no longer valid? Why?..
OnLine Miha
  2009-11-06 22:52:28    
Congrats to all you guys for taking an argumented stand against this nonsense.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-07 09:18:01    
It was interesting that Joey reported that Enzo had done a 9a by adding a sit-start to an 8c. This is newsworthy and 8a reported it.

@ Gabor: If Joey says it is a sit-start I base my personal opinion on this information. Enzo has just done another challenge and done nothing wrong.

My point is that such ascents are just quantitative and the climbing community should try to keep high quality standards.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-07 09:44:34    
@ Gianluca: At a personal level I rather stick with the guys who only produces hard core quality climbs like Sharma and Ondra and most other climbers, rather then the ones focusing on producing quantity grades.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-07 12:11:09    
...and how many "standards" are simple extencion ?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-07 20:29:22    
Why do you think that the #2, #3 and #4 most important international climbing websites have chosen NOT to publish the news on the 9a sit-start route?

By NOT publishing this news they have taken an even stronger ethical stand-point towards sit-starts on routes compared to 8a.

8a published the news as it was done by a 15-year-old and in order to create a debate. People who criticize me should be even more critical towards planetmountain, Climbing and UKclimbing as they have NOT thought the 9a sit-start route was newsworthy!


OffLine sidney shaw
  2009-11-07 21:17:40    
Why do you compare 8a, the best website in the universe since the Big Bang with those insignificant other websites?

We are here and we talk about 8a, it seems clear to me.. am I right?

But again: is it not a (sit-start) boulder problem linking to a route? Why do you keep saying Enzo simply sit-started a route?

Jens, I feel a little anger in your comments.. It's ok, Adam will win next one, don't let yourself down.. ;)
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-07 22:14:11    
Why do you think that the #2, #3 and #4 most important international climbing websites have chosen NOT to publish the news on the 9a sit-start route?

http://www.kairn.com/news.html?ident=69792
http://www.kairn.com/news.html?ident=69809

Does it means Kairn in #5 or less !!!

Why they have chosen NOT to publish ?
How do you know about their choose ?

And why did you report it ?
Did you report all about the last week of Enzo ?
8c+ in la roche de rame
8B (maybe first repeat) in Font...
Do you know the name of these route and boulder ?
And where will you find it ?
Your news is only a shit... incomplet and wrong.
Except if you believe all was written on the web, report it without any local information, or wihtout "comment" from an 8a members.

it's unprofessional.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-07 22:14:38    
Why do you think that the #2, #3 and #4 most important international climbing websites have chosen NOT to publish the news on the 9a sit-start route?

http://www.kairn.com/news.html?ident=69792
http://www.kairn.com/news.html?ident=69809

Does it means Kairn in #5 or less !!!

Why they have chosen NOT to publish ?
How do you know about their choose ?

And why did you report it ?
Did you report all about the last week of Enzo ?
8c+ in la roche de rame
8B (maybe first repeat) in Font...
Do you know the name of these route and boulder ?
And where will you find it ?
Your news is only a shit... incomplet and wrong.
Except if you believe all was written on the web, report it without any local information, or wihtout "comment" from an 8a members.

it's unprofessional.
OffLine Gabor Szekely
  2009-11-07 22:49:09    
Jens -
"My point is that such ascents are just quantitative and the climbing community should try to keep high quality standards." ..... Sure it may just be quantitative, but not everyone (like Adam and Chris) can travel to the best areas every weekend to try the most spectacular routes in the world... otherwise I'm sure Enzo would be off in Spain right now.. Since hes pretty much done every other route in Deverse, Im sure he just needed something else that was hard to do.
I actually find this more impressive then if he did some 40 meter 9a in Spain, since the beginning is an incredibly hard boulder, only repeated twice! Sure young kids have endurance, thats nothing new.. but when you see them bouldering hard, on top of doing hard endurance routes, you can really see their true talent!

Why does the focus always have to be on the aesthetics of a line? Why cant it be also on the movement and the intricateness of lines ?
OffLine sidney shaw
  2009-11-07 23:04:32    
Gabor: the problem seems to be WHAT is being climbed, but in fact it is not. The discriminant of whether a news is important or not is WHO climbs. If this climber is not in the special list then some weird excuses are thrown, and sometimes is related to WHAT is being climbed.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-08 09:22:42    
@ Mo: Kairn is not an international climbing website. It is a French website.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-08 10:52:01    
and the fact that more than 200 million people speak french worldwide doesn't mean anything? you should say that it's because it's not in english.. which is what your implying.
OnLine grubber
  2009-11-08 11:18:22    
hmm, UKClimbing.com an international website? this is just too easy.
OffLine Christian Mengel
  2009-11-08 11:47:13    
question for jens...if adam did the first repeat of akira, tied in at the jugg and finished it all the way, would that be news?
OffLine Jérôme De Boeck
  2009-11-08 14:47:20    
@ Jens : Kairn isn't Kairn an international website and UKClimbing yes??????? because they both write their news in their home language and bad luck English is internationale and French not???? As far as I know Kairn reports from all over the world and is read way further than just France.

Secondly : what is this website talking about high standard ethics, the greatest climbing website in the world, etc... as it is posting some shitty advertise to loose weight from a retarded website on their homepage??? is this becoming a junk website? hope it's somebody who hacked the website who did that one...

And 100% props to Enzo, I was there the day he sent Inga and it was really inspiring. What on Earth does it bring to your news to say "8a si fighting against low standards"? Just get to that 9a level Jens and realise how hard and complicated it is to climb hard route and climber do NOT have the luxury of focusing just on ethics. Besides being strong enough you have the huge problem of having a route available to try. Bad luck for Enzo he did almost all the hard route in that region! So he tries what is left. It's the second (third?) acsent since 2002, it's really amazing. And after he sends the route the first thing you can read on 8a is "oh, bad ethics, too bad". Can I just ask in the name of what are you defining standards in climbing? Because you alays write "8a.nu thinks" but unless you give me names I "Jens Larsen thinks" and it is very interesting to see that many of the top level climbers or climbers that have a big climbing background witch are the only people who can truly speak about ethics are very very very often against your definition of standards or at least the way you bring the problem. Call your ethic the "8a.nu ethic" and not "climbing ethics" witch is something that, if it has to be defined, has to be defined among a large group of climbers.
OnLine grubber
  2009-11-08 15:57:22    
bravo JéJé!
hope to see you soon man, let me know when you're around
OffLine François Pignon
  2009-11-08 20:10:02    
ah ben c'est bien ça, je vais sur les news en français et c'est tout en anglais! et quand je veux réagir sur une news c'est encore en anglais !

Mr le webmaster, ça sert à quoi le drapeau français en haut de la page si y a rien en français sur votre site ??
C'est juste pour faire style ??
C'est nul !
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-09 12:15:24    
@ Jerome: You are totally wrong.

The only personal message in this news are written here in the forum. I guess i am allowed to write personal messages in the same way you are.

I just give Enzo credit for doing the 9a but according to me I do not think you should grade and same such problems...and this has Enzo not done.

I just applaude him for having done just a hard problem.
OffLine Jérôme De Boeck
  2009-11-09 13:07:55    
you didn't answer my question Jens :

when you write "the 8a community" in the name of who are you talking?
witch opinion of witch people do you use to define the standards or ethics, and still you can't agrue with the fact that your ethic is the "8a.nu ethic" and not the ethic decide by all the people who also have a valid opinion and do not participate in the 8a.nu discussion, maybe like 10% of them participate in such debate.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-09 13:50:36    

Inga is in the scorecard of Daï Koyamada from 2002...


After the 20 moves of the 8A+/B traverse, you arrived in the start of 7pm.
Is it illogical to continue to climb as it is possible ?

OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-10 07:25:10    
@ Jerome & Mö: Why do you think that 8a is the only big international climbing website who has mentioned the 9a sit-start?

The other big international websites have taken a very strong stand point when they did not mention a 15-year-old who did a 9a.

You should applaud 8a to having mentioned the news instead of criticizing me for having almost the same opinion as the other big three.

@ Mö: You are also criticizing 8a for not mentioning all Enzo Oddo news. As 8a are mentioning Enzo news more than any other international climbing website, I do not think your criticism is correct.

I guess in the future the Oddo family will not be so happy with you, convincing a 14-yer-old to stop recording ascents in the leading climbing website in the world.
OffLine sidney shaw
  2009-11-10 09:45:43    
Haha Jens, you should post again the poll about why we like 8a, which to me is only one: it is just the best international GOSSIP climbing website in the World! God I like all these chit chatting, especially when you end up twisting reality haha!

Regarding your last post:

1) in your first statement you make implicit the fact that the 2nd and 3rd best climbing websites reported it, then you say the opposite in the second statement! brilliant!

2) all of us, a part from you Jens, keep supporting Enzo; nonetheless, you Jens, say Enzo's family (?) will not be happy with us (all of us but you Jens) and will convince him not to report ascents anymore on your beautiful gossip website!

the second one is just fantastic man! You are a genius! HAHAHA
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-10 10:25:44    

@ sidney: Could you please explain what you are talking about because neither I or, I guess, anybody else would understand your comments. I guess you miss-understood what I wrote. Please read it again!


8a is the international site in the world that has published most Enzo news. The other big websites did NOT chose to publish the 9a sit-start, by a 15-year-old.

In 2010, he will probably be #3 in the 8a Junior climber of the year list.

OffLine sidney shaw
  2009-11-10 11:03:01    
HA! you changed the post! You sneaky boy! You wrote "The other big international websites have taken a very strong stand point when they mentioned" now it is a negative sentence! sneaky man!

Ok then, it was a typo. You are going to deny it, but it is all right.

About the second point: it seems to me that everybody in this thread are siding Enzo saying what he climbed is worthy etc, whilst you are the only one against it. So far so good?

Well, after this you say

"I guess in the future the Oddo family will not be so happy with you, convincing a 14-yer-old to stop recording ascents in the leading climbing website in the world."

Which to me seems weird: we (that is, people you Jens refer with "you") are supporting him, and you Jens are saying that because of our support the Oddo family (which sounds.. creepy..) will stop recording ascents to your leading super awesome website. To me it is the opposite: if the Oddo family ever decided to forbid their son to record ascents it would be because you Jens say what he climbed is rubbish!

Do you know what I mean now?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-10 11:48:43    
@ Sidney: I guess I have written over 1 000 posts here but I have never changed it, as you suggest. This can be proven by the data base where we keep track of all changes being made afterwards. And I repeat, I have never done what you suggest.

On your second argument, you are totally wrong again as I am referring to Mö when I say "you".

"@ Mö: You are also criticizing 8a for not mentioning all Enzo Oddo news."

You, and now I am talking to you Sidney, have accused me for something you actually just misunderstood. This is sad. Please read the news and comments more carefully before you start criticizing me.

I repeat, 8a is the international climbing website that has written most good news about Enzo. The other big three, decides to say that a 9a by a 15-year-old was not newsworthy. This means they have taking a very negative stand towards sit-starts.
OffLine Steve Lewis
  2009-11-10 12:38:01    
I think it's fine to give a grade to something that is a personal achievement but probably only worth reporting if that's a significant leap forward in the climbing standards of the day. (Is it still significant for a 15 year old to climb 9a???).

But as a general trend I don't agree. Look how it applies to lower grades. If someone did an easy boulder problem sit start into a 6b+ route could they really give it a new name? Could they even add it to their 8a scorecard?

Incorporating sit starts into routes is changing one of the fundamental rules of route climbing ie. you start with whatever you can reach from the ground. Sit starts are just making things artificially harder the same way that missing out holds makes it harder.

How would it be if say Ethan Pringle repeated Jumbo Love with a new sit start that added two new moves? Could he give a different name? A different grade? Claim it as the hardest?

Personally I agree with Jens and would go for quality over high grade.

But I can see the relentless push for higher grades might make the linking of boulder problems and sit starts into routes a new trend in the future. Who knows? Not something I would welcome though.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-10 13:12:20    
Ok...
The start is sit because the ground is only one metter down from the roof.
If it is "sit-start" the problem, I can dig the ground for one metter more and you can start standing up ;-)

And there is nothing to compare with 2 moves more in Jumbo Love, I repeat ;
Inga is 20 moves traverse then, you finish the traverse in the holds where starts 7pm (about 15 moves)...
Is it illogical to continue the climb ?

@Jens, I 'm really afraid to lost my friendship with Oddo family !!
ahaha !!
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-10 13:33:47    

@ Mö: The good thing is that it is always exceptions and this might be a good one. There is no absolute truth in climbing however, it is important for the ethics to have discussions like this otherwise we might end up with sit-starts all over the place.

Why do you think that the other three big international climbing websites have not reported the Oddo, 9a sit-start ascent?

In a more general dilemma, I think you should be aware of that your crag is maybe the crag where you find the lowest ethics when it comes to chipping and variations in the world.

To sum-up what some hard core friends have told me: It is a place measured by quantity rather than high quality. 

OffLine sidney shaw
  2009-11-10 13:44:57    
Don't be sad with me Jens, let's make the lack of caffeine guilty, shall we :)

Anyway, here it comes again. I have had enough coffees and still cannot understand what's going on..

First you say "The other big international websites have taken a very strong stand point when they did not mention a 15-year-old who did a 9a."

which to me it means "they have not reported it"

then you say "Why do you think that the other three big international climbing websites have not reported the Oddo, 9a sit-start ascent?"

which to me it means "they have reported it"

or not?

Help me Jens! And since we are here, could you please explain to me another thing? If it is a boulder linked to a route, why do you keep calling it a sit started route?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-10 13:58:33    
@ Sidney: My good, you must be in bad "caffeine" shape. Please read my quote slowely and now I have even bolded the "not" you keep missing.

Why do you think that the other three big international climbing websites have not reported the Oddo, 9a sit-start ascent?


It would be very interesting to have an answer of this question, by you and Mö and the rest of the gang but I guess you do NOT dare :)



OffLine sidney shaw
  2009-11-10 14:02:54    
ARRGH Jens! I still do not get it! I see that NOT, but I also see the other one it seems you are not seeing it!

My turn into bolding things:

"The other big international websites have taken a very strong stand point when they did not mention a 15-year-old who did a 9a."

"Why do you think that the other three big international climbing websites have not reported the Oddo, 9a sit-start ascent?"

Where is the truth? I have some opinions regarding your question, but first.. tell me where the truth is!

Secondly, answer me to the other question: is it a sit started route or a boulder linking to a route?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-10 15:51:56    

It was originally reported as a "sit-start-boulder...into an 8c". As a personal comment I refer to it as a 9a sit-start instead of writing the "9a sit-start-boulder into an 8c" just to save time.

Now it is time for you to answer why you think the other three big international websites did NOT chose to report the 9a sit-start-boulder into an 8c ascent?

OffLine sidney shaw
  2009-11-10 18:43:21    
ok finally i got the "not" point, i was confused with the meaning of "why do you think".. sorry about that!

mm why it was not reported.. uff it seems you got me there too, I tried to do some research myself.. damn what a terrible day for my complaints hehe!

ok i call myself out! props to enzo anyway!
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-10 19:44:23    
"It was originally reported as a "sit-start-boulder...into an 8c"."
Reported by who ? It was just a comment from Joey on his blog !
Joey is a climber (nice one) and not a "journalist" like you, Jens.
Do you think that great newspapers/websites are just happy with this kind of "information" ?
Before to report this, ask Daï Koyamada !
He is a member of your comunity !
(for me, your comment is just an offense against Daï and his work to imagine and clean this boulder for many rainy days in fall 2002)
Or even ask Enzo or his father, Jérôme or... me, anybody with knowledge about it !
It's just unprofessional from you, to just copy/paste something found on a climber blog.

My way to show news (Oddo family is ok too!) is not to just say "climber X sent RouteY".
Especialy when it is something hard.
Who cares to be the FIRST to anounce it, without material ?
Climbing is not the football worldcup or champion's league !
Here, in our f.....g shipped country, we (nice-climb.com) prefere to wait one week more and show something consistant with the feelings of the climber, one story about the trip, details about the route, take time for pictures etc etc...
I did that for all "big ascent" and I do not care a lot to be the first, especially if it is to be wrong and empty like your report.


ps : Who are this 3 "big" international climbing websites ?

ps2 : Do you know that 99.9% of routes are sit-start ??
Cause 99.9% of climbers sit down to put their climbing shoes, just before trying an attempt !
Is it wrong or is it ok for the comunity ;-)
Have fun outside...
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-10 20:07:52    

@ sidney: Thanks. You can just imagine how many times I have had converstion like this when people tell me they have made a mistake...and that includes in fact Mö:

@ Mö: I have already written that the three other big international websites are, "planetmountain, Climbing and UKclimbing".

I think they are more offensive towards Dai Koyamada and Enzo Oddo as they even did not bother to report it, as 8a did. Can you please answer the question why the other big three have not reported the 9a sit-start by Enzo.

I think Joey has one of the best blog out there and I guess his report were correct. Do you say his report was NOt correct?

OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-10 20:20:25    
2 out of those 3 didn't bother reporting Mrazek's or Kubista's 9a+'s either. Is this a strong statement too? Against what?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-10 20:56:59    
Mrazek's ascent and Kubista's was later...

However, if Climbing.com and UKclimbing.com do not report these to 9a+, I will not any longer consider them as #3 and #4.

The second best, Planetmountain.com has reported everything but NOT the 9a sit-start by a 15-year-old. Why do you think they have done this selection?
Planetmountain has reported it and they are clearly the second most important
OffLine Gabor Szekely
  2009-11-10 21:40:36    
@ jens ...

first off, i have a couple questions:
1.) who decided that climbing.com, UKclimbing, and planetmountain were the #2,3,and 4 top websites ? from this statement, "However, if Climbing.com and UKclimbing.com do not report these to 9a+, I will not any longer consider them as #3 and #4.", it seems like you made that ranking? or, if you got this from the poll you did earlier, that doesn't necessarily mean it's the absolute truth.. since only 8a members replied to that poll.. what about all the other climbers that arent on 8a? do their opinions not count ? it seems likea much more accurate poll needs to be taken before you start reporting things like "the number 3 or 4 climbing websites in the world"
2.) just because these websites didnt report Inga, does that necessarily imply that they didn't report it because they didn't think it was newsworthy ? since enzo has already done a few 9a's this year, maybe they just didnt report it because it's not that new for enzo to do a 9a anymore.. just like they dont report everytime ondra does a new 9a or 9a+...
3.) maybe the best way to find out why they didnt report it would be to ask the editors of those websites, instead of asking the 8a community? how would we, or even you, know why it was unreported until we find out from them?

"I guess in the future the Oddo family will not be so happy with you, convincing a 14-yer-old to stop recording ascents in the leading climbing website in the world."

I think Enzo is old enough to decide if he wants to report something on 8a or not.. I have met Enzo, and his family before, and they are definitely not the type to "forbid" Enzo to report things on 8a..... Philippe (Mo) is very good friends with the Enzo family and I'm sure his opinion is well valued!

Overall, my point is, you make a lot of big statements but there doesn't seem to be much proof behind any of them.


OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-10 21:58:01    

#1: I have been in the business for ten years and there is actually no other international websites then the mentioned four. You have plenty blogs...


#2: If a 15-year-old does a 9a it is always newsworthy no matter of how many he does. It is like saying that it is not interesting to report when a soccer player does his his 30-iest goal in a season.


#3: I will ask the 8a community through a poll.

#4: it is Philippe who said he made Enzo stop reporting at 8a.

I guess I am allowed, just like you, to have opinions even if you do not have much proof behind any of them.

OffLine HaeMeS
  2009-11-10 22:06:55    
Ever heard about the term ὕβρις/hubris?

8a.nu: good concept - .... editor

How about some introspectiveness, Jens? Just look at what you've written so far this  'discussion'!

Time to grow up.

OffLine Jérôme De Boeck
  2009-11-10 22:23:23    
Why on Earth Jens do you always reply putting the fault on the three other websites rather than answer the question : "Is it professional to take an info from a climbers blog and publish it worldwide and open some random debate about sit-start as you have no idea on the configuration of that route?"
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-10 22:26:46    
Jens = "Can you please answer the question why the other big three have not reported the 9a sit-start by Enzo."

Jens, can you please answer 100 questions I've asked you ?
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-10 23:00:41    
Oups...
Just a detail...
Enzo is not 15 years old, as it is noticed on the "8a official worldwideclimbingnewsreport"...

http://www.nice-climb.com/pagesphotos/grimpeurs/enzo_oddo.htm

It's hard to be a good professionalnumberonewebmaster !

ps : please, do not thanks me for corecting info, and do not ask me (one more time) to write for 8a some french news...
As I know that you have never paid the french guy in charge of it...
(et oui, c'est pour ça que les français ont que des news en anglais, 8a.nu ça paye... mais pas pour tout le monde !)
OffLine Christian Mengel
  2009-11-11 06:17:24    
"In a more general dilemma, I think you should be aware of that your crag is maybe the crag where you find the lowest ethics when it comes to chipping and variations in the world.

To sum-up what some hard core friends have told me: It is a place measured by quantity rather than high quality. "

Now that is the most childish and lame point in the whole discussion, especially since it was put forward at a point when it was meant to be understood with an offensive undertone towards Mö and the community of Nice climbers...everybody knows that Gorges du Loup is chipped, nowadays they probably wouldn´t chip. Btw, I asked whether it would be news if Adam did Akira, a route of similar style.
Btw, the whole # 1, 2, 3 debate is pretty hilarious and stupid...I guess that climbing.com doesn´t bother a second if you no longer think that they belong to the list of let´s say top 5 climbing webpages. For a primarily America based webpage the first ascent of a 5.15a in some rather obscure Austrian crag that hardly a viewer of the page will ever visit can be dismissable...you report what your viewers are interested in. I guess that with your style of reporting, it doesn´t befit you to cast stones at other webapes reporting policy...
OffLine Gabor Szekely
  2009-11-11 07:22:37    
"#1: I have been in the business for ten years and there is actually no other international websites then the mentioned four. You have plenty blogs..."

OK, so from this it seems like you created the ranking and decided what the top 5 international climbing websites are. I can actually think of a couple more websites that report international news - desnivel, kairn, etc etc.


"#2: If a 15-year-old does a 9a it is always newsworthy no matter of how many he does. It is like saying that it is not interesting to report when a soccer player does his his 30-iest goal in a season."

You cant say "it is always newsworthy" because that's not necessarily true. Thats simply your opinion and doesn't explain why the others may have not reported it. I also think it's newsworthy, and most other people probably do too, but you can't assume that your opinion is the same as everyone else's.. Maybe some didn't report it because they didn't think that their readers would find it interesting? Or because they don't want too much news of Enzo, and would rather focus on other climbers at that time? Everyone has different approaches to journalism, whether it's fair to Enzo or not ...

"#3: I will ask the 8a community through a poll. "

This once again does not address what I wrote.. I said that neither you, or the "8a community" knows why the news wasn't reported.. why speculate when we could just find out? only the news reporters that chose not to write about it would know, so until we ask them it is pointless to speculate and argue about it.

"#4: it is Philippe who said he made Enzo stop reporting at 8a."

This is clearly a naive misinterpretation of what Philippe wrote. He said:
"The problem is that Enzo has a scorecard here...
But he did'nt care about updating it !
Maybe because of me ;-)"

All this is saying is that Philippe may have had an influence on Enzo's decision, not that he "made him stop" updating his scorecard. "Made him stop" implies forcing him/forbidding him to stop reporting... Everyone in this world is influenced by others, it's how the world works.. In the end, however, it is Enzo that ultimately decides what he posts on 8a.. not Philippe..

"I guess I am allowed, just like you, to have opinions even if you do not have much proof behind any of them."

Of course you are allowed to have an opinion, no one ever said you weren't. However, you need to emphasize that they are merely opinions instead of making them sound like solid facts... thats what really seems to be bothering everyone on this forum.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-11 07:56:19    
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-11 08:01:09    
#1: Kairn and Desnivel are NOT international climbing websites as they do NOT report in English.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-11 10:28:56    

First the poll only appeared here in the forum in order to see if I should change it and also to get the opinion from the opinium.

Later the poll was published in the global section but as it not did get a lot of action and as the answers are very convincing, it was taken away. It should be underlined that the answers are very much more positive towards reporting sit-starts in the forum.

OffLine Jérôme De Boeck
  2009-11-11 10:43:52    
Yahoo once again you don't reply to the facts we ask you to answer... how can you even talk about making debates on 8a if you don't know even how to take part in one ?! This isn't politics, it's not about attacking the people who ask you valid questions...
Answer at least one of the bloody question that are asked to you, what's your goal? Show Jens Larsen is right and all the others wrong? Or having a constructive discussion about climbing to make things evolv, even if your opinion isn't everybody elses in the end Jens.

I bring my question again? who is in the 8a community to start topics and have constructed opinion about climbing in general besides you? I mean if 8a is THE #1 website in the world, it must have some good solid team to take the challenge of being able to be the number 1 quality reporting website. Who is in this team next to you and what cultural background do they have, please?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-11 11:50:00    
If you start from the beginning I have tried to start a discussion by giving a general opinion on my opinion of the subject.

Then I have been attacked by people who did not like my opinion.

As you can see by the poll, most of the people actually have the same opinion as I have.

Maybe, Inga is a good quality route even with the sit-start but please try to explain why instead of just attacking my opinion or personality.

I think it is also important to understand that Mö actually has said that the same sit-start could be used for Punt X. I guess that would make Punt X as a 9b and maybe the hardest route in the world. I personally, would feel sad if the hardest route in the world would include a sit start!

Instead of just complaining about my opinion, give some solid arguments why Inga and other sit-start routes are making our sport better?

OffLine Jérôme De Boeck
  2009-11-11 12:17:56    
I think we are stuck in an infinite loop here...

So ok let's say all the sit-start thing is cool, so third time I ask, copy-past :

"I
bring my question again? who is in the 8a community to start topics and
have constructed opinion about climbing in general besides you? I mean
if 8a is THE #1 website in the world, it must have some good solid team
to take the challenge of being able to be the number 1 quality
reporting website. Who is in this team next to you and what cultural
background do they have, please?"
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-11 12:30:36    
I try to create debates which certainly are interesting for the community and I always try to give my opinion. It seems in the forum, people instead of discussing find it more interesting to criticize etc.

1. Anybody could start a topic. It is just go to the forum.

2. The 8a community is of course everyone who visits 8a.

3. The 8a team is mainly some fanatic climbers mainly living around Göteborg. However, I guess that over the last ten years, myself have contributed for 50 % of all work. The two other most important guy is the webmaster Jonas, the yearbook guy Tomasz and Ignacio from Spain. In total, there are at least 200 guys who have contributed with at least 10 hours work.

Could we now please continue the discussion. Do you think that a sit-start also to Punt X creating a possible 9b is the way forward for the climbing community?

When I guy like Sharma is looking for opening lines I can guarantee that he would never sit down on his butt just to create another challenge. Climbing should be about quality not quanitative massproduction lines like in Gorges du loup.
OffLine Jérôme De Boeck
  2009-11-11 13:52:45    
Chris Sharm makes thousand of dollars per year from climbing,  other 9a climbers 0 $. OF COURSE Chris Sharma wouldn't go and try that he's got the possibility to go anywhere on Earth to find the best line. So sorry you're point isn't taking about the community it's talking about one guy who has the means to go elsewhere.

And honestly Jens, I climbed in Gorges du Loup every summer for the past 7 summers because my grandparents live next to it so for me it's the perfect spot to have sweet vacations. So pretty much I know every route and maybe everymove on the main wall in Déversé. And honestly, this is far from being the crag where it's the most about quantity among the famous spots. Check out Spain where in the internationale destination a lot of route have been chipped to make them 8a/ 8a+ with a big crux somewhere in the route. Isn't that a quantity point of view???

So honestly the 8a community is maybe right, but Jens you are wrong about things are in Déversé, you'd have no idea on what is going on there and it's not a fault of yours. But don't judge it once again on a very limited amount of facts.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-11 14:10:09    
One reason why Chris can make some dollares is because he has always have had high standards and ethics. He is a good role model and his slide shows does not include sit-starts on routes.

Why are you talking about your seven summers at Gorges du loup but not giving any fact as you say I need facts...instead you are giving examples from other quantitative crags in Spain.

Please give example how the boulder and the route are connected. Where and how does the route start?

OffLine lth
  2009-11-11 15:07:59    
"#1: Kairn and Desnivel are NOT international climbing websites as they do NOT report in English."

Oh, irony! You're hardly writing English, Jens...
OffLine solidchris
  2009-11-11 17:37:56    
just a leap from a tree  :  http://news.climbing.de/9a-by-enzo-oddo-15/
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-11 17:39:08    
Jens, you always complain about people "being negative" or only "criticizing".

Let me tell you something: the most negative person here is you.

Enzo climbs a hard route. He doesn't hurt anybody by doing so and it is a great achievement.

So why the hell do you have to put that in a bad light?
You can have your opinion about "sit-start routes", but I think it's very unpolite to try to make bad somebody's achievement.
If you dont like that style of climbing, just shut up and let everybody climb what he wants.
But the worst is the fact that you have not seen the line nor do you have any information about it.

The same goes with downgrading routes/boulders that you havn't even seen. Thats also very negative and disrespectful against the people who have actually climbed the route.

It harms the climbing community and your website.






OnLine pbla4024
  2009-11-11 18:31:06    
So some American guy travels to France for climbing and he decides to change name of existing route with complete disrespect to local rules. And you call that "high standards and ethics". Are you joking?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-11 18:48:46    
@ pbla4024: Chris Sharma is the most credited guy in the climbing world.

@ hummer: I have NOT said anything bad towards Enzo.he can of course climb whatever he wants and I am very impressed also about the ascent of Inga.

I have tried to start a discussion whether it is OK to name, grade and report sit-starts to routes. Enzo have not named, graded or reported his ascent...he has just climbed very hard.

Some people think the soft grades harms the climbing community and there are many old schools climbers who think that the grade inflation is disrespectful towards them. It all started when "everyone" bouldered 8B and harder in magic Wood and I questioned the grades some five years ago. Now five years later, my suggestions have been the general consensus.

The same goes for the boulder Momento who first were reported as 8C+ but now consensus seems to be 8B+. Some 50 % of the hard core boulders have in fact been down graded.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-11 21:10:26    

"I have tried to start a discussion whether it is OK to name, grade and report sit-starts to routes."

Of course it is OK. Everthing is OK. You can climb what you want how you want and call the route however you want. Such a discussion is not needed!

I have nothing about downgrading, but please only if you have climbed the route! Until you havn't climbed it, just shut up! Please, do all of us this favor!


OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-11 22:07:11    

So why is a topo producer allowed to state grades based on information from others. I am doing exactely the same thing, the only difference is that we do have much more information in the 8a data base and we do confirm it by personal contacts.

The topo producer can state a down grade based on others so I guess, 8a and myself can do the same thing.

OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-11 22:43:55    
You are not doing the same thing!

You are downgrading based on your speculations or based on your "grading theories", but you never ask any of the repetitors.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-11 23:05:55    
Jens -->"Please give example how the boulder and the route are connected. Where and how does the route start?"

I already gave all informations...
20 moves in a roof (8A+/8B) ending on a hold where starts 7pmJPshow or... PuntX (common hold)
And then 15 moves for 7pm...
If it a sit start, it's just because the ground is 1 meter down from the roof (maybe you, Jens can start it standing up, but I you're not enough strong to try)
For me (and 99.9% of community) sit-start means : I can climb boulder/route starting stand up, but for challenging,I'll try to start sit down...
and of course, for a route, it looks... fool !
Just adding 3 or 4 moves !
But here, on a 15 moves 8c, you add 20 moves 8A+/8B !

Jens--> "So why is a topo producer allowed to state grades based on information from others.I am doing exactely the same thing, the only difference is that we do have much more information in the 8a data base and we do confirm it by personal contacts. The topo producer can state a down grade based on others so I guess, 8a and myself can do the same thing."

Are you sure to have more informations than local climbers, than the guy who bolted the routes !
YOU want to confirm by personal contact ?
Are you sure ?
Why don't you ask THE members themselves ?

The HUGE difference is :
The topo producer is, in many times, local and talk with local climber, about the area and the routes.
It's how we do here in ChippedLand !!
60 000 meters of climbing / more than 3000 routes from 10 to 300 meters !
All f.....g chipped !!
Just because we are all OK to discuss and share our knowledge to make something POSITIVE and OBJECTIVE...

But you Jens... you're always speculate, without any idee of the place, just based on your...bibble database !!

ps : when you have an INTERNET website... it's obviously international. Internet have no border (except in China/etc..., write in chinese to get a new world record)
Even my small web site get 40% of visits coming out of France.
Do you think that a local Boukhara-climbing website, writting in english could be "InternationalClimbingWebSite" ??
OffLine David Fowler
  2009-11-11 23:09:51    
Hi Grades aren't that importnat. This is silly.

Why not just climb rather than talk about it on the internet. I bet Chris Sharma does not do this.

D
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-12 07:25:05    
As my speculations almost always are correct in a future perspective, I must be doing something right

@ Mö: Does the 7PM JP Show start from a high pile of stones or does it start from the ground? I mean, if it starts like two meters up from a pile of stones, it make sense to start from the ground.
OnLine pbla4024
  2009-11-12 21:19:36    
Statement A: Climber X ingnored local rules when climbing abroad.
Statement B: Climber X has always had high
standards and ethics
It is not possible for both statements to be true, is it?
Here we know Statement A is true, therefore Statement B is false.
QED

OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-13 01:07:34    
It is actually possible that both statements are true:
for example in the case where "local rules" are not equal with "high standards and ethics".


OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-16 12:24:44    
As Mö did NOt answer, I found through this nice video of Anatole Bosio doing a 9a, that 7PM JP show starts directly from the ground.

If it had started from a pile of stones, it would make sense to add a start that goes from the ground.

I can not understand why so many have been complaining about my 9a sit-start route phrasing as this is what it is.

I think it is a nice challenge to do the sit-start and continue into PuntX, 9a as Mö suggested but such a route will NOT make it into the books of record at 8a, even if someone would name and grade it to 9b or more.
OffLine sidney shaw
  2009-11-16 12:56:21    
..but maybe Enzo is not as tall as Anatole and he decided not to start from a pile of stones?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-16 13:25:09    
Whatever Enzo did, it is very impressive and this thread does NOT talk about this.

This thread is about naming and grading sit-starts to routes. They might be very hard challenges but they are normally just constructed in order to create quantifiable climbing instead of pushing for quality.

Maybe the FA did also consider it as a nice training challenge with no intention to name and grade it. Maybe it was just the climbing media that turned this challenge into a quantifiable route.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-17 19:42:45    
Jens...
adding 20 moves to a 15 moves route is a "sit start" ?
Do you really think it's a sit start ?
(I can dig the ground in order to keep it as a stand-up start)
Why dont't you ask your member Daï Koyamada ?
(The first ascender in 2002, in the 8a database)
I think Daï is abble to share something with you, no ?

Jens, you are just talking about something you do not know !
Why ?
Because you just want to be the first to show the news, but YOUR news !
Like "people website" looking for everything about the "stars", without any question, any research, without any share and whithout any ETHIC...
I give you a RED card for this absence of professionalism.

Just to refer to your question about other website :
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=37091#
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-17 20:12:05    
8a.nu did publish the news and I personally think Enzo did complete a good challenge and the next most be to instead go for a sit-start of PuntX. However, based on a poll for the 8a community, 61 % do NOT think we should publish such news.

So what should I do when he has done it? Should I go against what the 8a community has voted in the poll?

OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-17 21:43:27    
"So what should I do when he has done it? Should I go against what the 8a community has voted in the poll?"
Your poll was just wrong !
Of course, a sit-start from a route is... nothing !
I cant't imagine starting sit-down instead of stand up in a route... for two/three moves !

But "INGA" IS NOT A SIT-START OF A ROUTE !
Jens you are just showing how blind you are !
Closing yourself just on one word "sit-start" !
Just because it's impossible to start stand up in INGA ??
Jens please, talk with your active members about this : Daï Koyamada, Jon Cardwell, Daniel Woods, Dave Graham, Joey Kinder...
Write them an e-mail and ask them about their feelings about INGA...
If you have an once of respect for your members (community)
Just make you job !
(and please, do not thanks me to tell you the truth)
OffLine sidney shaw
  2009-11-18 10:25:29    
http://planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=37091

If you read it, it will almost give you the feeling they are talking about a completely different thing.

Jens, you can have 400% more twitter-like news then everybody else, almost always garnished with all the speculations and provocations you want, in order to get up to 10trillions of billions of accesses who most likely come to read all the gossiping going on (or not reading anything at all), which will make you super rich through the ads placed everywhere and full of smug and even more stubborn, but this will not make 8a the best climbing website in terms of quality.

In this thread you talk about quality vs quantity of climbs, you should try to apply the same rule to the news and the form you present them.

But I believe this last part is not in the scope of your goals at all.
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-18 10:47:08    
8a has reported the news without any negative comment or opinion. Personally, I think a high quality route always starts standing up and I am sure also Koyamada, Cardwell, Woods, Graham, Kinder thinks the same.

As I have said many times, Inga might be a nice challenge but I do NOT consider it a high quality route as it starts sitting down on your but.

What is Inga if not a sit-start adding 20 very nice moves to a very nice route, you start standing up.

@ Sidney: My annual salary for running 8a is like 10 000 Euro a year. I do NOT run 8a in order to maximize my salary!
OffLine akira
  2009-11-18 14:29:03    
You are sure of so many bullsh*t that I don't think anyone would be fool enough to give any credit to statements of yours such as "I am sure also Koyamada, Cardwell, Woods, Graham, Kinder thinks the same." You have no right (and even no capacity) to speak for them ... Maybe ask them and then report.

You have a strong psychological problem always pretending speaking for other people, it beeing strong and famous climbers, 8a community or even the whole climbong community. It might weel be the frustration of beeing so far away from climbing as well as your idols or anything else but I would seriously advice you to look for psychological help. This is not what I would call mind sanity.
OffLine Sakari McGregor
  2009-11-18 15:24:39    
What about Peter Würth who did neverending story 1+2+3 this summer in magic woods. He first did the 1+2 and then tied in and finished it. Graded as a 9a??? sports route. The grade doesnt matter at the moment, but it has a sit start.

So its not a high quality route Jens?????
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-18 15:44:23    
If we were to define and rank some high quality 9a routes in the world, I would guess that sit-starts routes would NOT have been high up in the ranking.

The sit-start routes might be of good quality, but compared to the best 9a's, I think they are not of high quality. 

OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-18 19:37:26    
"Why do you think that the #2, #3 and #4 most important international climbing websites have chosen NOT to publish the news on the 9a sit-start route?"
Because they don't want to be so fast as you want to be, but more precice on the news !?!
Because they don't want to add a news with only 10 words plus a personnal comment !?!
Because they can wait more details from a source, ask questions, somewhere else than on a forum...
Because they are professional...
Like below :
http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/enzo_oddo_14-year-old_french_crusher/
Complete news/report with all ascents and all links to others websites... Perfect !

From all "your" best websites, 8a was not #1 on this one...

ps : ok, Jens, I will dig the ground making possible a stand start !
But it could be considered as "poorly/mainly chipped", no ?
OffLine thebon
  2009-11-19 18:07:27    
@Mo, and Sydney

Thanks for the links to the Planet Mountain and the Climbing articles. 

You  are right, these articles are well written, researched, and do give a very different perspective of the climb. Props to Enzo! 

Those photos show that the "Sit Start" is a logical start to the route, I see nothing wrong with it as a legitimate climb.  I think it is up to the people who have been on it to determine the quality of the route; the holds, the moves, the perspective, the challenge and so on. 

I think that defining this climb as "9a sit-start route" makes it seem like someone added a move or two to the bottom just to gain the 9a status.  Obviously this is not the case, and it shows disrespect to both Enzo and to the guy who put it up.




OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-19 18:34:05    
@ Mö: The news about Enzo was presented as a quote with no personal information.

Almost two weeks after, Planetmountain.com has added personal opinions in their news.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-19 19:34:06    
Jens,
Do you think it's necessary to add personal opinion in a news ?

And which personal opinions from Planetmountain ?
From what ?
Do you want I show you all the mails between them and me ?
All the questions they asked me ?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-19 19:46:14    
I have learnt that I am not allowed to put in personal opinions in the news.

"If you stop and think about it, it's even fairly sensible: there are many examples of this sort and the great thing about climbing is that it's free, to be interpreted and reinvented thousands of times and in a thousand different ways."
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-19 19:57:01    
"I have learnt that I am not allowed to put in personal opinions in the news."

You're wrong.

The comment quoted above (from Planetmountain), is nothing to compare with your "debate/Jens" opinion.

"the great thing about climbing is that it's free, to be interpreted and reinvented thousands of times and in a thousand different ways"

I agree 200% with this !
And you ?

Please, can you make a poll with this and a simple question... yes or not !?!
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-19 22:41:48    
You have to make a distinction between "News" and "Debate". In every newspaper, you will every day find "Debate" articles.

8a have reported about the Enzo 9a news without writing any personal opinion but for some strange reason you think it is OK when another website put in a personal opinion.

I totally agree on the opinion you are quoting above but I, personally, do not think you should Name, Grade and Report Sit-starts to routes.
OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-19 23:29:05    
After all these 96 post, you did'nt understand INGA is not a "sit-start" to routes...

And I like it.
Cause it shows to everybody that you do not read all comments "from others"...

But it's a big disrespect against Daï Koyamada, member of your community and at least one of the best climber !
Daï spent 2 weeks to clean it and find the beta...
And he was not allowed to grade/name/report it ?!?

Daniel Woods, Jon Cardwell, Joey Kinder, Dave Graham think INGA is in the game...
I just talk with them, it's not only my opinion.

OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-20 09:11:22    
I find it strange that you do not allow me and others to have a different opinion than you.

In fact in an 8a poll, most of the 8a community think like me.

Of course, I respect your opinion and 8a did report the news without any negative or positive opinion. Anybody can Name, Grade and report a sit-start to a route. I do allow it...but I think that type of route not is adding quality just quantity to our sport.

OffLine User Deactivated
  2009-11-20 09:48:39    
You "allow it"?
How noble...
OffLine sidney shaw
  2009-11-20 10:25:22    
"I find it strange that you do not allow me and others to have a different opinion than you."

Are you talking to yourself Jens :) ?

"In fact in an 8a poll, most of the 8a community think like me."

Could be, definitely if you twist the polls like "Should Media Report Sit-Start link-ups to Routes?": it is not a sit start lik up, it is a boulder + route! And besides, there are only 183 votes to your I-Am-The-Truth poll.. quite a little.. doesnt 8a count 97.34 billion registered people?

OffLine thebon
  2009-11-20 17:04:05    
"I find it strange that you do not allow me and others to have a different opinion than you."

I don't want to speak for Mo, but I don't see where he is not "allowing" you to have your opinion.  He is just clearly saying that he disagrees with your opinion, and giving quite valid reasons as to why he does not.  Just the same as most others who have posted here.
That is the nature of a discussion. 

I would hope you could look, think a little outside the box, and see that they may have a valid point of view.


OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-20 18:20:13    
So why do not he and the others think little outside the box and see my valid points.

They tell me that I am wrong.

I only say that this kind of route is not a high quality route. It is a nice challenge but for me more of a quantifiable thing than a quality route.

I would like to promote quality instead of quantity in the news. As an example Chris Sharma is only putting up quality routes!
OnLine pbla4024
  2009-11-20 19:11:42    
So Inga is quite similar to Akira, right? Long roof without rope, then good hold and easier top. Would you call Akira sit start?
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-20 19:29:14    

From the 8a yearbook, "The majority of the route is about three to three and a half meter above the cave floor." I do not think it includes a sit-start.

If they would have digged out the floor under Inga so you can not naturally reach up and select among 20 different positions, it would be the same as Akira.

The difference might not be so big measured in centimeters but the fundamental thing with route climbing is to start on the holds you can reach.

Some years ago, Frankenjura climbers did put up many sit-start routes but luckily it stopped. I would just think that we would see thousand of sit-start routes if we started to give fame to Inga etc.

Mö thinks that it is OK, just because it is 20 moves long. So what about a 10 move sit-start etc? As soon we start to accept them, it is totally impossible to draw a line. This is my mine point. If you accept Inga, we also have to accept One move sit-starts etc?


Let us say that somebody sit-started Realization giving it 9b+. Eould then this be a high quality route and the hardest in the world?

OffLine thebon
  2009-11-20 19:30:50    
I think that most would agree that adding a few moves to a route with a sit start to attain more difficulty would be quantifiable rather than quality.  But from my view, which is fairly limited, I have to trust what I've read, I don't think Inga fits this bill. 
To call climbs which link boulder caves to a route "not high quality" is in my opinion not an open-minded view.  As mentioned above, Dani Andrada, who is a visionary in putting up new quality lines, has considered them worth his effort.  As has Fred Rouling.
I'm sure there are low quality and high quality routes of this nature, but I think how you measure quality will have a big factor in this. For me a quality route is challenging, the moves are pure and engaging, the line is beautiful, and the positions you find yourself in are exciting and fun.  As I haven't been on it I can't comment on if Inga is quality or not.  I think you'd have to ask those who have been to get a real view.
I agree that the routes that Chris Sharma is putting up are mind-blowing from what I've seen.  I would guess that on a star system they would have more stars than Inga, IE be more classic, and I'm sure if  Enzo continues the way he's going he will be one of the guys with a chance to repeat some of them. Still this doesn't take away from his effort on Inga, or it's legitimancy as a route.
When you say in your post "Obviously,
it is good training for Enzo but quality wise, I do not think you
should name and grade sitt-starts on routes. It is just to report to
the world, - Look, what I have done!" you are making a judgement on his motives and of others who have done this route and others of the same nature.  Are you really sure they did them for the reason you suggested?
There are a lot of different motives to get on stuff that challenges us, I am not in a position to say why he chose that climb to do, and I would argue that you aren't either, unless you have more information than what you've shared here.


OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-20 20:04:43    
@ thebon: You are actually wrong. Enzo did not name, Grade or Report the route. He just climbed it and of course that must have been a nice challenge.

If we say a 20 move sit-start route is OK, the of course we have to say that a 19 move, a 18 move etc...down to a one move sit-start! 
OnLine pbla4024
  2009-11-20 20:12:58    
Could you stop repeating false statements? I believe that English word for person knowingly repeating false statements is "liar".
1) You could hardly call Inga sit start, first part is way longer and harder then second part
2) Sharma does not have high ethical standards, he ignored local rules in France while ago.
OffLine thebon
  2009-11-20 21:52:55    
Ok I think I understand what you are saying, that Enzo wasn't the one who reported it.  So are you questioning the motives of whoever did?  Was that Joe Kinder?  How about Dai Koyama?  Does Enzo Name, Grade and Report other climbs in a different way?

Is Akira a sit start? ( I really don't know...) Most is about 3 m high, but what if someone starts as high as they can jump to on it?  By your definition it would then be a legit assent correct? 

I hear what you are saying, that allowing one sit start will open the floodgates and thousands will appear.  I don't think this will happen, however, because I would think finding climbs of the nature of ones like Inga, or Akira, or Ali Hulk would be hard to do.  I would think that most climbers are sensible and, like the ones in Frankenjura, would find it ridiculous to add sit starts to many routes where it is not merited. 

I'm not the one to say whether Inga is legit, don't know enough about it, but it seems that others who are quite qualified think so. 
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-20 22:15:14    

@pbla4024: It is sad that you do think Sharma has LOW ethical standards. I think you are wrong.

@ thebon: Maybe we will not see thousands of sit-start routes but maybe as many that you and others will think that we should stop reporting them. How should you and me make a distinction what is quality and what is just quantify? It is of course impossible to make distinctions that everybody agrees upon. The same goes for an exact definition of Akira.

8a has also reported the news, but as a personal opinion I rather promote quality climbs.

OffLine thebon
  2009-11-20 23:21:25    
I agree, it is difficult to make a determination of quality that all will agreed on, even with routes that don't have sit-starts.
As mentioned, I think the best way possible is to gather the opinions of those who have been on the routes. That is what you have set up in the database (star system).  I'm sure it is harder to determine on high-end climbs with only one or 2 assents, but still, the people who have been on them are best to tell you how good they are, I think.
What I look for in a climb is in a previous post.  If I found a boulder cave that linked into a route that satisfied those criteria to me, I would have no problem calling it a classic and recommending it to my friends.  I'm sure others may have different views, and I'm fine with that also.

OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-20 23:41:28    
Obviously, a 9a FA guy would never say it is a route of low quality.

Would you also be fine if someone tomorrow said he has added 5 moves with a sit-start to Realization grading it 9b+, making it the worlds hardest route?

If the media makes no distinction of quality, we will by time See a lower class of climbs. I am glad that Sharma and other with high ethical standards try their best to motivate other to search for lines instead of searching for grades.
OffLine thebon
  2009-11-21 18:50:14    
Well that really is a hypothetical question, and if you htink it through, I don't see this a real threat to climbing.  I doubt a climber good enough to climb realization would really think it was worth his/her while to do this, even if this is a possibility. 

To climb the hardest route in the world, I would assume that the climber would need to be one of the very strongest climbers, and there are enough better challenges than to do this. 

You are right, the media does need to make a quality distinction, but I feel you also need to have some faith that climbers themselves, especially those pushing the envelope, will veer toward quality rather than quantity. 

I guess the question is, is it you as the media's responsibility to guard against "low quality climbs?"  There will always be those who are just gunning for numbers and fame instead of climbing for the love of it, but I think that a majority of those out there climb for the love of it, and I think to reach the world class status, you need a passion for climbing, and this will insure that there will always be quality climbs.

And even if your hypothetical was the "hardest" climb for a while what would that matter?  It will not inspire people, and will soon be eclipsed by a more impressive harder climb.

But perhaps that's my niavity speaking...
OnLine Jens Larssen
  2009-11-21 22:22:20    
"...and there are enough better challenges than to do this." So why do bother doing sit-starts on routes?

"but I feel you also need to have some faith that climbers themselves, especially those pushing the envelope, will veer toward quality rather than quantity."

History show that climbers have chipped routes in order to be able to do First Ascents!